Raw fed dogs and vulnerable people - a useful update....

[loveyouradvice]

Well, I've discovered that although PAT dogs cannot be raw fed the other two main organisations - Therapy Dogs Nationwide and Canine Companions - are quite happy to have raw fed dogs working for them. TDN posted the following in their FAQs.

My dog is RAW fed, can they still become a Therapy Dog?

Yes. We allow raw fed dogs to join TDN. There is no evidence to show that raw fed dogs prove a higher infection risk than kibble fed dogs and we believe in feeding your dog a complete balanced species appropriate diet.

The Royal College of Nursing (RCN) produced guidelines in 2017 stating that RAW fed dogs should not visit a hospital environment but in practice, many hospitals we visit have made a judgement based on their own experience and have not excluded us from visiting. That said, an establishment may ask that they do not have a RAW fed dog in which case we will respect their decision and help you find an alternative placement.
www.tdn.org.uk/

Yeah - I mean why would you listen to the RCN, the British Veterinary association, or any of the science?

You need to feel good about yourself clearly overrides any risks that you may expose vulnerable patients to.

www.rcn.org.uk/-/media/royal-college-of-nursing/documents/publications/2019/december/007-925.pdf?la=en

Out of interest what is the healthcare and zoonotic disease expertise of these organisations that they know more than the RCN steering group?

RCN guidance was also updated in 2019

www.rcn.org.uk/-/media/royal-college-of-nursing/documents/publications/2019/december/007-925.pdf?la=en

There is no evidence to show that raw fed dogs prove a higher infection risk than kibble fed dogs and we believe in feeding your dog a complete balanced species appropriate diet.

This is blatantly true. Death and severe illness have been associated with raw feeding.

Do you not think the RCN steering group actually evaluated the evidence?

I hesitate to reply - I find your very aggressive tone quite challenging.

In many areas of science - and especially nutrition, whether dog or human - the main medical bodies are not actually on top of the latest research and although saying they wish to be objective, aren't actually.

I am very aware of the biases in other areas of scientific research and am not at all surprised by the above.

Yes, I do rate those two organisations - their lifeblood is providing SAFE therapy animals to VULNERABLE people - they would not be risking their existence by proposing something unsafe.

And I respect the other research evidence I have heard - such as the Danish, etc.

And I bear in mind that the "establishment" is vast pet food companies selling kibble etc who have a vested interest in perpetuating the status quo, rather than establishing "the truth".... and that the raw food community mainly consists of small enterprises and diy.

Yes I'm sure that raw chicken carcasses are perfectly safe.

Hmm, now, I truly do believe that raw diets are the best, healthiest diets for dogs (and cats)
Nothing could convince me otherwise.

However.

While there have been salmonella recalls for dry food these have been relatively rare.
We know that raw meat more often than not has campylobacter, E. coli, Salmonella and other nasties present.
Dogs slobber and bits of food depending on the breed can get stuck in the fur around the mouth (some more than others)

I would be perfectly happy to raw feed myself, but I’m not so sure if I would if I had immuno compressed people staying with me.

Although the risk is probably absolutely tiny, thinking about it, I’m not sure it is ethical for working therapy dogs visiting extremely ill, immune compromised people to be fed raw food.
I know that if I had a very sick relative who was visited by a raw fed therapy dog, I really don’t think I would feel comfortable.

And I bear in mind that the "establishment" is vast pet food companies selling kibble etc who have a vested interest in perpetuating the status quo, rather than establishing "the truth".... and that the raw food community mainly consists of small enterprises and diy.

Oh yeah I'm sure the RCN are in the pockets of pet food companies
Out of interest who do you think owns the raw pet food companies? They don't exactly give their products away for free do they?

And there's definitely no middle ground like home cooked diets

Excellent evidence base:

THERAPY DOGS NATIONWIDE came into being early in 2016 and is managed entirely by volunteers.

But you trust their scientific expertise over the RCN, BVA and the literature?

What is your evidence that using raw fed dogs for therapy services is safe?

I'm not aggressive - I'm exasperated that anyone would put their own belief and need to be seen to be doing good over the actual health and well-being of vulnerable people.
Especially in the middle of a pandemic

It's selfish

@BigWolfLittleWolf

Hmm, now, I truly do believe that raw diets are the best, healthiest diets for dogs (and cats) Nothing could convince me otherwise.

However.

While there have been salmonella recalls for dry food these have been relatively rare.
We know that raw meat more often than not has campylobacter, E. coli, Salmonella and other nasties present.
Dogs slobber and bits of food depending on the breed can get stuck in the fur around the mouth (some more than others)

I would be perfectly happy to raw feed myself, but I’m not so sure if I would if I had immuno compressed people staying with me.

Although the risk is probably absolutely tiny, thinking about it, I’m not sure it is ethical for working therapy dogs visiting extremely ill, immune compromised people to be fed raw food.
I know that if I had a very sick relative who was visited by a raw fed therapy dog, I really don’t think I would feel comfortable.

Exactly.

Tbh I'm actually not comfortable with raw feeding at all although I understand the appeal. But I think the public health risks of shedding whilst small can be significant.

However leaving that aside sending a raw fed dog in to lick a potentially immunocompromised person is just foolish

Can I ask Veterinari about the comment many put forward - that all dogs eat truly revolting things in the park as well as licking other dogs bums..... Is this - or is it not - a health risk for immuno compromised people?

And don't worry - of course I know that raw food companies are enterprises designed to make money - the difference is that they are still small and most are fairly new - some highly ethical, others not. But they don't have the marketing or research budgets of the multinationals.

So is licking the method of transmission?

I can understand the risk of transferring contamination from a raw fed dog to an immuno compromised person, what I don't get is thinking that raw feeding is the problem, not the face licking 🤔😅

Can I ask Veterinari about the comment many put forward - that all dogs eat truly revolting things in the park as well as licking other dogs bums..... Is this - or is it not - a health risk for immuno compromised people?

Dogs don't usually carry highly pathogenic E. coli, campylobacter or Salmonella, so in general no. Research supports that raw fed dogs have higher populations of pathogenic bacteria in their guts and that these dangerous bacteria are as a result of ingesting pathogens from raw food

The qPCR assays revealed significantly higher abundance of Escherichia coli (E. coli) and Clostridium (C.). perfringens and an increased Dysbiosis Index in the BARF group.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0201279

this study suggests that in dogs fed a natural diet, the potential risk of opportunistic infection could be higher, than in dogs fed a commercial feed.

link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13099-017-0218-5

Dogs can carry these bacteria without ill effects and shed them making them a public health risk and they should not be licking immunocompromised people.

I'd really hope that if you are taking your dog into these situations you have educated yourself in the risks you're exposing these people to? Pathogenic E. coli or C. Perfrigens can be a death sentence. In fact one man has already died in the UK in an E. coli outbreak traced to raw feeding.

Now please show me your evidence based research that contraindicated that done by the GNC steering group, all major veterinary associations and the scientific literature to support your assertions?

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

So is licking the method of transmission?

I can understand the risk of transferring contamination from a raw fed dog to an immuno compromised person, what I don't get is thinking that raw feeding is the problem, not the face licking 🤔😅

Dogs lick their coats as part of normal grooming.

Hospitalised people are encouraged to stroke the coats of therapy dogs.

Can I ask Veterinari about the comment many put forward - that all dogs eat truly revolting things in the park as well as licking other dogs bums..... Is this - or is it not - a health risk for immuno compromised people?
Tiny percentage, but anecdotally, my dog is 8, she hasn’t ever eaten anything revolting on a walk in her life and she has never licked another dogs arse, do dogs even do that?!
The closest she’s come is sniffing another dog’s ear.
I do know two dogs who eat horse poo but those dogs are in quite poor health, they are the only dogs I know that eat ‘revolting’ things.

And licking is a method of transmission
In reality any bodily fluids, fur or dander could be contaminated

Consuming a commercial or homemade raw diet, a homemade cooked diet, or raw meat and eggs, increases a pet dog’s risk of carrying Salmonella.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1863-2378.2009.01320.x?casatoken=K9c13qjoOdYAAAAA%3Ax9gfaOLJYNLRHFLFUrLkgA8tYETgRFHeVFhG3WKSSGFpdQyIbelSTe1A0HrA7FOV0Go7I-frhHxOw

There is a recent trend to feed pet dogs and cats in Britain and other developed countries on raw meat and animal by‐products using either commercial preparations or home recipes. This shift from heat‐treated processed food has been driven by perceived health benefits to pets and a suspicion of industrially produced pet food. The diets of wild‐living related species have been used as a rationale for raw feeding, but differences in biology and lifestyle impose limitations on such comparisons. Formal evidence does exist for claims by raw‐feeding proponents of an altered intestinal microbiome and (subjectively) improved stool quality. However, there is currently neither robust evidence nor identified plausible mechanisms for many of the wide range of other claimed benefits. There are documented risks associated with raw feeding, principally malnutrition (inexpert formulation and testing of diets) and infection affecting pets and/or household members. Surveys in Europe and North America have consistently found Salmonella species in a proportion of samples, typically of fresh‐frozen commercial diets. Another emerging issue concerns the risk of introducing antimicrobial‐resistant bacteria. Raw pet food commonly exceeds hygiene thresholds for counts of Enterobacteriaceae. These bacteria often encode resistance to critically important antibiotics such as extended‐spectrum cephalosporins, and raw‐fed pets create an elevated risk of shedding such resistant bacteria. Other infectious organisms that may be of concern include Listeria, shiga toxigenic E scherichia coli , parasites such as Toxoplasma gondii and exotic agents such as the zoonotic livestock pathogen Brucella suis, recently identified in European Union and UK raw pet meat imported from Argentina.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jsap.13000

@Veterinari I can believe raw meat but why would home cooked food be a risk? The very act of cooking kills the bacteria?

Also, unless the rules have been changed eggs should be safe as chickens are routinely vaccinated against salmonella (I used to keep chickens)

[quote BigWolfLittleWolf]@Veterinari I can believe raw meat but why would home cooked food be a risk? The very act of cooking kills the bacteria?

Also, unless the rules have been changed eggs should be safe as chickens are routinely vaccinated against salmonella (I used to keep chickens)[/quote]
I assume it's because of poor food hygiene practises/improper cooking - it's shown in other studies too. Tbh there's not a huge amount of research done on home cooked diets.

In terms of the eggs - that particular study is Canadian and I don't know if laying hens are vaccinated in Canada or not?

But the point stands that zoonotic pathogens mostly originate from the diet fed

Interesting, I'm aware e coli can persist for a long time in soil (& cow slurry, a particular area of specialism of mine 😁).
Certainly an extra aspect to be aware of.
My dog is thriving on raw & his farts & poos are much more liveable with so I am going to carry on. I won't be exposing him to immuno compromised people though.

My dd contracted campylobacter from working on an especially grotty farm. It is absolutely not something you want to get, and has taken her, as a healthy woman in her late teens early 20’s more than four years to get over, has become sensitive to certain foods and lost 2 stone. I imagine that the cows that infected her are the ones most likely to end up in the “raw food” chain, not prime grass fed bullocks. Imagine an elderly, compromised person getting that.

Also, as a side issue, how balanced is the raw diet? When a dog catches a rabbit it eats the whole animal, fur included, what replaces the fur, bones etc?

Regarding eating horrid things, I live in sheep country and I’m afraid my dogs love sheep poo, especially from milk fed lambs. All the local dog owners say the same, and the dogs seem to thrive. Horse poo comes second, but generally doesn’t interest them and cow poo is ignored.

It depends where you source your raw food.
Many suppliers prepare complete meals with the correct balance of bone, offal etc.
Some owners go DIY, and mix it up themselves according to their dog's weight/activity levels.
It's easy to see when your dog's diet is getting too 'bony' by the state of their poos - small & crumbly, like pavement poos in the 1980's...

It's easy to see when your dog's diet is getting too 'bony' by the state of their poos - small & crumbly, like pavement poos in the 1980's...

But not easy to evaluate the micronutrient balance

@Molecule

My dd contracted campylobacter from working on an especially grotty farm. It is absolutely not something you want to get, and has taken her, as a healthy woman in her late teens early 20’s more than four years to get over, has become sensitive to certain foods and lost 2 stone. I imagine that the cows that infected her are the ones most likely to end up in the “raw food” chain, not prime grass fed bullocks. Imagine an elderly, compromised person getting that.

Also, as a side issue, how balanced is the raw diet? When a dog catches a rabbit it eats the whole animal, fur included, what replaces the fur, bones etc?

Regarding eating horrid things, I live in sheep country and I’m afraid my dogs love sheep poo, especially from milk fed lambs. All the local dog owners say the same, and the dogs seem to thrive. Horse poo comes second, but generally doesn’t interest them and cow poo is ignored.

Yes campy is awful Hope your DD is feeling better.

I think many people don't realise that there's a significant difference between the normal gut bugs which can be unpleasant if ingested and the pathogenic bacteria which can cause life threatening infections.

Also, as a side issue, how balanced is the raw diet? When a dog catches a rabbit it eats the whole animal, fur included, what replaces the fur, bones etc?

A good quality raw food supplier will provide you with a diet that's balanced and that includes all the right amounts of bone etc. Some owners make up their own diet, but you have to be very careful to get the balance right.

In terms of fur, you can get natural treats that come with the fur still attached. My dog loves rabbit ears with fur, and he's not raw fed - he eats a mix kibble/wet, but all his treats are 100% natural body parts.

As part of my business, I sell natural pet treats and I don't sell anything that isn't 100% natural - it's all air-dried animal parts. Sometimes they're cut up smaller so they can be used as treats, or so they're ideal for puppies, but there's nothing in them that isn't natural.

As well as fur-covered ears, can also get things like beef skin with fur, whole deer legs, pigs/lambs trotters, calves hooves - all sorts.

I agree @veterinari it's impossible to assess micronutrient balance from poos.
I don't DIY, I get complete mixes. DDog isn't keen on offal by itself but he will eat it mixed in.