Invisible fences - saw several in the USA, not seen them in UK

[AdventureIsWaiting]

I've been pondering this off and on. We visited some friends in the USA (midwest if it makes a difference) a while ago. They had just bought a puppy, which came with us on a short walk one day. Not knowing the area we walked down a dead end on their estate, and as we turned around to come back saw a wolf the biggest husky I've ever seen, sitting under a tree watching us, completely unfenced in. Friends' puppy was very reactive and aggressive to other dogs, so we got out of there asap without him spotting - and upsetting - the other dog. Apart from our blood pressure, all was fine, but it was the biggest rush of fear I've ever had.

We asked our friends about it and apparently where they live (stereotypical US affluent estate with big front lawns), invisible fences are really common. They pointed several out to us during the rest of our trip and were adamant that the fences work 100% of the time and they are a great idea. Having said that, they are not the best dog owners I've known (I mean this factually, rather than disparagingly - mixed messages, finding biting and aggression funny, only letting the puppy out to toilet on the lawn (sometimes) and not walking him - I ended up Googling a lot about the breed as I felt so sorry for him and he should have been getting 2x short walks a day at that age - hence us taking him for a walk), so I've wondered since if this is true.

I've never seen them in the UK (to my knowledge) and thought knowledgeable posters on here might know why - is it that gardens in the UK tend to be fenced in / smaller, or are invisible fences thought to be cruel (I've seen mixed responses to e.g. training collars, which I think operate similarly)? To be fair I've been in other places in the USA and also not been aware of them, but those places have either been much more rural, or very urban, not suburbia.

Many thanks to anyone who can shed some light.

They are hideous. People are trying to defend them by saying‘they don’t hurt’. If they don’t hurt they wouldn’t work, obviously. If you don’t want a proper fence then don’t have a dog. Simple.

Polly, I have seen that dog come out of the car, collar on, ready to go (and, respectfully, you haven't) and the dog has worked with it on for quite some time. As I said, shock collars can be abused, but in this particular case it acts as a back-up to the recall whistle. The owner doesn't use it on his other dog, who has zero urge to vanish over the horizon.

@Crescia

DH put it round his neck. I put it on the inside of my wrist because I figured this was actually more sensitive. The only people on this thread who have actually felt one all concur it's not bloody painful. But keep banging the drum about something you haven't experienced.

How does it work then Crescia if it does not inflict discomfort?

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

Polly, I have seen that dog come out of the car, collar on, ready to go (and, respectfully, you haven't) and the dog has worked with it on for quite some time. As I said, shock collars can be abused, but in this particular case it acts as a back-up to the recall whistle. The owner doesn't use it on his other dog, who has zero urge to vanish over the horizon.

and respectfully you have not see the dogs that will not work because of shock collars.......but I guess I should be grafetul their treatment plans are paying my mortgage

Polly, as I said, they can be abused. It's like your voice: you can use it to attract your dog's attention, or to cow and terrify it.

I am interested to see how do you define abuse versus normal use with a shock collar?

Yo can not tell how the dog will react until you have given the shock.......

Crescia

At first you you were very exact and said your cat got zapped 3 times, then it was ‘maybe half a dozen times.

You really shouldn’t have animals if you have to resort to such measures. Other options would have ‘cost too much’ or ‘not looked very nice’. Just awful. Trying the shock yourself a couple of times really isn’t the same. Fucking vile.

Personally, if I could only have a pet of any kind that I needed to 'zap' several times in order to teach it that some places are forbitten and going there will result in a painful experience, I'd rather forgo having a pet.

Yes, as pp said, trying it on yourself is pointless. You are a great deal bigger than a cat or dog and you will know what's about to happen to you.

For an animal the electric shock is going to come as a shock, thereby causing stress and fear, otherwise it wouldn't work.

It's called a 'shock collar'; the clue's in the name.

Very easy article based on research on why shock collars do not work and the list of countries that have banned them
no evidence justifying the use of shock collars

more academic research on adversive and reward based training methods - there is always a full out from adversive training

again studies show how ineffectual shock collars are

There are many more studies saying the same thing. Adversive training will alway have poor consequences.

I am an oldie (well not that old) but have been around long enough to see the different trainings methods and the impact on dogs.

There is no doubt that using positive reward based training dogs can be trained to a higher standard, with more drive motivation and they are more contented, less stressed and have a happier bond with their owners/trainers.

Noone ever will be able to convince me that positive punishment is the way to train a dog and that includes shock collars.

I think an invisible fence for a cat and a shock collar for a gun dog are two very different things. You can argue that there are lots of positive ways to train the dog but there are none available to get to get the cat to stay inside the boundary. We have dogs as well and I can't ever see the need to use w shock collar although we don't hunt. Maybe I'd feel differently if we did.

@PollyRoulson

I am interested to see how do you define abuse versus normal use with a shock collar?

Yo can not tell how the dog will react until you have given the shock.......

I don't see how the sensation of a stick insect walking on your skin can count as abuse. I doubt the dog will perceive that shock as painful at all: she weighs about half of what I do and the strongest shock, on me, didn't hurt - it was bordering on unpleasant, that was all - and that frequency has never been used on the dog in question. The lower settings are just vibration only, no electricity at all.

It's the same with your voice. You work out what pitch and volume attracts the dog's attention.

I don't see how the sensation of a stick insect walking on your skin can count as abuse. I doubt the dog will perceive that shock as painful at all: she weighs about half of what I do and the strongest shock, on me, didn't hurt - it was bordering on unpleasant, that was all

I'd rather not use "unpleasant" techniques to train my dog, to be honest. There are so many alternatives out there - insisting on giving your dog an electric shock in order to get it to listen to you is lazy at best, and abusive at worst.

Sadly, I'm not surprised that people are prepared to defend their use.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman How on earth can the sensation be like a stick insect walking on your skin? An animal wouldn't even feel that.

It's got to be unpleasant otherwise why on earth would it make an animal avoid something like a whole area around a garden; it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Yes, we use our voice when training animals. With my dog it was and always is, an upbeat happy voice for play or general training and a low gentle voice when I want her to be calm. My dog knows that and she knows what to expect from me and I never have and never would shout at my dog.

Some people think it's appropriate to scream and yell at their dogs or even hit them and yes, that might get the result that the dog does what the owner wants but the dog will be doing it through fear, not through trust that has been build up over time.

It's the same with a shock collar or an electric fence. It might get the result you want in the short term but at what cost to the animals wellbeing.

I did say that the strongest setting was NEVER used on the dog (I think it was about setting 9; the owner was using I think setting 3 or 4). He never uses the collar on his other dog - doesn't need to, she's a very different character.

I never thought I'd defend e-collars, but having felt that one on my own skin, and seen how amped the dog was at having it on because to her it meant good times, I changed my view.

pigsDOfly I wasn't talking about invisible fences. I don't know enough about them to have an opinion.

If the collar is so unpleasant, why is my friend's dog so excited to have it on? It works by alerting her, like an extra whistle almost, only against her skin not in her ears.

And yes, it does feel like an insect walking on your skin. I can say that, because I've tried it, on me. It might feel different to the dog, but not so different that she's in anyway scared of it.

If she'd been afraid of it, I'd have reconsidered my friendship with her owner. But she wasn't. The opposite, in fact.

I was looking after a friends alsation, not in UK at the time, and threw their toy too far under a hedge so took their electric collar off so they could retrieve the toy, then I stupidly crossed the boundary. It hurt, not excruciating but really unpleasant and I dropped the collar. I understood why it happened and that it wouldn't happen again, can't imagine how scary it would be if I didn't!

A friend of mine tried a shock collar on one of her dogs. Trouble is, if another dog was close by and barked the first poor dog got a shock. I think it lasted about an hour before she realised the error of her ways.

those fences are horrible and a lazy training method.

Hmm modern Capability Brown

As I was walking past a property once, 2 dogs came charging at me, completely unprovoked.

I was attacked, suffered wounds which needed medical treatment, needed time of work and counselling. I was also financially compensated for the trauma by the owners (I didn’t start legal proceedings, I received a surprise cheque in the post).

It turned out their invisible fence was turned off and as such, no boundary was in place. The dogs literally were under no control whatsoever and had never been restrained or taught to stay within their grounds.

Wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

I spent time as a pet/house sitter in Australia. They were pretty common there too. We looked after a strictly outdoor dog, he learned the boundaries of the fences when he was young so could just free roam the orchards as he liked without risk of him wandering into the neighbouring sugar fields. Not something I'd ever get myself but I can see the practical side.