First time owners - adopt or breeders?

[ClaireEclair]

Hi there. We’ve always wanted a dog and now both our work places have confirmed they have permanently closed their offices so we will both be WFH (my office is moving to a WeWork type of system but we are permitted to decide when and if we want to use the offices).

I’ve always assumed we would adopt but just looking through the charities they all seem to request ‘experienced’ owners which seems to be because of ongoing behavioural issues. While DH had dogs as a child, his last dog passed away when he was 11 and I’ve only ever had cats.

I have no preference in the type of dog but DH really dislikes staffies and greyhounds which seem to be the most typical type being rehomed. Breed specific charities have long waiting lists.

It’s making me think we should opt for a breeder (Kennel Club only) and get a puppy as opposed to a dog.

Have any first time owners gone with a charity and was it a success? Do breeders sometimes sell older dogs?

We own our home and have a large enclosed garden. Any first time owner opinions welcomed. Thank you.

Oh I have found an excellent thread that asked all the questions I need to ask! Thank you for reading anyway :)

I know you’ve already found a similar thread but I just want to say please don’t assume kennel club = good.
It’s a registry and nothing more.
Yes there are some great Kennel Club registered breeders, but there’s also plenty of appalling ones.

@BigWolfLittleWolf

I know you’ve already found a similar thread but I just want to say please don’t assume kennel club = good. It’s a registry and nothing more. Yes there are some great Kennel Club registered breeders, but there’s also plenty of appalling ones.

I didn’t know this! That’s so helpful. Thank you!

Just as there are great breeders, there are great rescues and equally awful ones.

One I know seems to measure their success on throughput, matching dogs to owners is arbitrary, as long as they get them into a home, whether that home is right or not doesn't seem to matter

Also dont assume that a "puppy is a clean slate" and that rescues have issues.

Most of the puppies makeup with be based on generations of epigenics eg if Great Great Grandfather had a fear of men so could his geat great granddog!

At least with a rescue you can see the issues before you "buy" and see if you can live with them.

Either route will take time to research and find the right dog

In my mind both have issues. On the one hand you have rescue dogs that you don't know their history or their issues, on the other hand you have puppies that are seriously hard work. There is a 3rd option which is to buy/adopt a dog from a 3rd party. Lots of people get puppies then can't cope, lots of people have dogs then circumstances change and they can't keep them.

Thank you all. We would prefer an adult dog, at least 2 years old. We have time to wait and research as much as possible. Everyone I know that has a dog has adopted from shelters. It’s a shame DH is so against staffies as I would have one in a heartbeat. They are so adorable and have met so many that are just so sweet and who love human interaction.

@NiceTwin

Just as there are great breeders, there are great rescues and equally awful ones.

One I know seems to measure their success on throughput, matching dogs to owners is arbitrary, as long as they get them into a home, whether that home is right or not doesn't seem to matter

This is very true and why I went with a breeder where I could see and interact with 4 maternal generations (Great grandma, grandma, mum and a young adult kept from her first litter). She keeps all of her girls. The sire is a well known stud and so his temperament and that of his line is easy to check. I was also able to see how the puppies of previous litters (now in their forever homes) were growing and developing in physicality and personality as the breeder has a locked down private social media group (doesn’t sell or advertise through it, just uses it as a way for owners and prospective owners to see more of how she does things and a support/sharing/community portal for owners with dogs from her kennel).

There are terrible, unethical breeders and terrible, unethical rescues. There are also excellent breeders and excellent rescues who care about the health, welfare and future of their chosen breed out there.

Some breeders do sell their ex breeding girls. I don’t think of them as particularly ethical breeders though. The girls are often not particularly easy pets to rehome, they’ve often not had any human interaction (or any positive human interaction ), not housetrained (because they’ve lived in outside kennels or barns), never played (because they were, essentially ‘livestock’), don’t know how to walk on a lead or know any basic commands (again, they were never pet dogs). You are getting an adult dog with puppy training needs and often a degree of trauma into the mix. Rewarding but not to be underestimated and not for a first-timer.

Just do bear in mind that puppies are hard work and need constant supervision. If you're trying to work from home at the same time, it's next to impossible. I love my two and wouldn't trade the for the world but Jesus fucking Christ they nearly broke me.

They pee and poo. Wherever they happen to be at the time and anywhere between every 45 minutes and every 2 hours. Including at night. You have to get up every couple hours through the night to let them out to pee or clean up the mess if they didn't make it. If you use puppy pads they don't always distinguish between the pad and the dropped jumper/cushion/rug etc. Rod for your own back. Did it with Ddog1 and never again.

They can't be left alone for long. Say goodbye to day trips, weekends away unless you've someone to look after the dog.

You have to walk them even if it's pissing down. For hours if they are an active working breed. Then you have to rub them down when they get in or the cover everything with mud and make the place smell like wet dog.

They chew. Everything and everyone. Ddog1 is solely responsible for no less than 2 dining tables, 1 fire surround, 6 doorframes and a dressing table. And countless items left lying around, phones/ipod/ remotes etc

She is the sweetest most well behaved dog as an adult, I get compliments on her all the time but the puppy years were brutal. Training is hard. You can't just think fuck it I cba today because if you give an inch they'll take a mile and you're back to square one. You don't know if they'll have behaviour problems until they hit adolescence.

Ddog2 is goofy and biddable but thick as 2 short planks. He took forever to train and his recall is still shaky plus he is reactive so walks are like a military operation with Ddog1 acting as scout. She runs ahead and if her ears go up I wind Ddog2s lead round my arms and brace. No trauma, no abuse, no fear, he's just a dick.

At least with an adult dog you know what you're getting. Mine are the same breed but polar opposites. Puppies are like toddlers who don't speak English, don't wear nappies and take a minimum of 2 years to grow up enough to be reasoned with.

You might get one that's really sweet and easy and loves everyone or you might get a really sweet one that turns into a crazed psycho when he spots another dog.

@PollyRoulson

Also dont assume that a "puppy is a clean slate" and that rescues have issues.

Most of the puppies makeup with be based on generations of epigenics eg if Great Great Grandfather had a fear of men so could his geat great granddog!

At least with a rescue you can see the issues before you "buy" and see if you can live with them.

Either route will take time to research and find the right dog

@PollyRoulson, do you have a source for the epigenetics stuff? I'm genuinely interested but also somewhat sceptical.

OP, breed-specific rescues that foster dogs in people's homes tend to have a good handle on any issues, and they can be a good place to start if you know what type of dog you are after.

“do you have a source for the epigenetics stuff? I'm genuinely interested but also somewhat sceptical.”

I’ve never seen anything as specific as that - but there’s lots of research and articles about general behavioural stuff... fearfulness, aggression, anxiety - things like that definitely seem to have a strong hereditary factor in dogs.

I always took the epigenetic with a pinch of salt.... but I have a dachshund who jumps into people's faces JUST LIKE HIS MOTHER... a really unusual trait and had to train him (hard) out of it... so NO idea how that happened ... except....

Buying from third parties as suggested by a pp. Massive issues with being conned into buying a farmed puppy.

Other issue is unknowingly buying a stolen dog if you buy from someone who allegedly can't cope with their dog anymore.

@tabulahrasa

“do you have a source for the epigenetics stuff? I'm genuinely interested but also somewhat sceptical.”

I’ve never seen anything as specific as that - but there’s lots of research and articles about general behavioural stuff... fearfulness, aggression, anxiety - things like that definitely seem to have a strong hereditary factor in dogs.

Genetics yes, definitely, but epigenetics?

I can believe that a puppy from highly trained parents might well have neural pathways epigenetically primed making it easier to train, but I can't imagine specific behaviours being laid down.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman. I will post links later cooking supper but quickly....

The most recent study on mice has sparked loads of more current research on epigentics with interesting results.

In the original experiment male mice where conditioned to the smell of cherry blossom (acetophenone) and everytime they smelt it they were given an electric shock. Unsurprisingly the mice became fearful when they smelt the cherry blossom.

Nothing new here.

But the sperm was taken from the male mice and inseminated in females the offspring all showed a fear reaction to the smell of cherry blossom. The same reaction of fear was also noted in the Grandpups of the original mice.

The brains of the mice also had different receptors in their brains which meant they were able to detect the smell at lesser amounts than the average mouse. This is thought to play a part in PTS and hypervigilance of fear.

So what was concluded is that epigentics plays a major part in brain development and fear responses.

Amazing and adds even more depth to the importance of epigenetics

There is also an experiment in spearation anxiety in spaniels which comes to a similar conclusion. I will try and hunt out the original research.

original research on mice smell, fear and offspring

Cheers, @PollyRoulson, will have a read. Thanks for hunting it out!