Atypical collie

[MrsAntiSocial]

Have hijacked another thread but it needs its own really..

I have a collie.

Its always said these dogs need a job, they need mental stimulation/brain games and this will leave the collie calm and satisfied.

This isn’t the case for mine!

When I try and do some training she gets super excited and rapidly goes through all the tricks she knows.
Although she is very clever I have to be very careful training her because if I don’t give her the treat (because she hasn’t done what was desired) she gets annoyed and frustrated.

When it comes to games, again, she is very easily frustrated/stressed.
Take the commonly recommended asking for a stay, hiding a ball or treat (where can see) and release, she will run like a lunatic to the ball or treat, repeat a few times then no longer wants to search.
She just wants to be given the treats or play with the ball and will start whining and grumbling if I hide it.

I tried a game where you put food under cups and move them.
She selects the correct cup each time but after a few goes she starts getting cross, angrily bashing the cups sending them flying.
She’ll start crunching the cups if I continue.
She just wants to eat the treats, not find them under cups!

Or tidying up toys.
She will put the toy in the box then immediately take it back out and throw it at me for a game. For every single toy.
Dear god the rage if asked to just put them away in the box.
She grumbles/growls and whines and picks them up really angrily and literally throws them into the box.

Fetching objects; she knows what most things are.
Told you she was clever
I can ask her to get me something or point at it if she doesn’t know it by name and she’ll do it once, possibly twice then the grumbling starts...

If something she wants is stuck, she’ll try a few times then stare at me, the object, me, the object until I get it for her.

She loves a walk and will walk/run for miles but so called ‘brain work’ seems to really piss her off..?

@LittleBoPeep95 thank you! he's 18 months

Hello!

I know this thread is about 'atypical' collies, but as you are all knowledgable about the breed I wonder if anyone has any advice/tips for me. We somewhat accidentally acquired a border collie in the autumn (he was a lockdown pup, surrended to a rescue and then came to us as someone in his next household was allergic to him). So he had a very unsettled few months.

He is now ten months old and we adore him, but it has been SUCH hard work. He is very reactive, which we didn't realise originally or know anything about - we were asking him to do too much, too fast, but after speaking with a behaviourist we have scaled things right back. When on a lead he barks and lunges at other dogs, bikes, joggers and cars. His first owners never lead walked him and just stuck him in a field with his brother to exercise himself.

We now only do one walk a day with him to reduce his stress levels. As often as it can be it's in a secure field. On other days I drive him to quiet places as early as I can in the day. Off lead he is a lot better which I know is common with reactive dogs, but since he hit adolescence his recall has gone backwards, so I keep him on a long line while we keep reinforcing it. It's a real catch-22 at the moment: the more he is off lead the happier he is, but I don't trust his recall round other on-lead dogs, so I have to keep him on the long line as so often I'll walk round a corner and suddenly a situation develops.
We have read up on trigger stacking and we're keeping him at a distance from things as much as we can while we treat him, etc.

We're doing brain games, frisbee in the garden, puzzles and snuffle mats with him to try and keep him stimulated. At the moment it sometimes feels overwhelming - we're trapped in a house with a dog we can't walk on pavements and everywhere is so busy with other dogs - we cannot walk him unless it's in a really quiet area but it's so difficult to find places. In the medium term we're planning to move house to somewhere quieter and more rural (not just for him, though it's a big factor!)

On top of that we have only been able to access a behaviourist online via Zoom. We're desperate to have some face-to-face training with him. So, adolescent dog, pandemic, winter and reactivity means that some days are a real struggle.

If anyone has any words of hope for when their collie calmed down they would be much appreciated. He is already a very different (and wonderful) dog to the one who came to us in the autumn, but it feels like a long road ahead, especially with his reactivity.

I think what I'm looking for is any practical advice - but also any stories of hope to keep us going until spring!

Thanks for reading.

@Flamerouge I think you're doing brilliantly already. I dont really have any practical advice but wanted to share about my difficult border collie.
He was a little bastard as a pup.

It felt like whatever training I did was not getting through. It suddenly all clicked into place at around 9 months and I realised that he had been taking it in, he was just too distracted with surroundings or what have you to listen?

The only ongoing issue I have is him wanting to chase cars, this is despite many many walks along roads trying to train, and just sitting watching them. He is funny though, he has specific roads and points. My street for example, that road doesn't count. The road outside of my street does and cars are chase worthy, unless he's at the end house wall, then that road no longer counts.

So, no advice but a little hope.

Have you tried stopping dead in your tracks when he does the barking and lunging and refusing to move until he is calm, or turning round and going the opposite direction until he stops?

@TheChip thank you for replying and for being so kind. it really helps to hear from other collie owners. I do think things are sinking in with him and I know that every training session we do with him will tell in the end.

I’ve just crated him after he had a barking/ herding fit, which happens when he is tired. I think he can’t switch off his brain as he wants to herd us/ be with us all the time. He is now asleep in his crate. We’re going to do an hour’s enforced nap time every morning and afternoon as he just can’t regulate himself.

We have found a wonderful dog Walker and she has been gradually introducing him to her pack. She has him for 3 hours one day a week and we will gradually extend that time. I think being with other dogs and people helps tire him out mentally too.

The barking and lunging has been a real problem in the house - his bite inhibition has always been excellent but he will give herding nips. We’ve been much firmer with time outs and removing him from situations this week which has helped.

I know he’s still a baby and it’s a challenging stage. I just want to do my best by him. He’s a lovely boy who had a tricky start and he deserves some understanding. I think not letting tiredness and over-stimulation go too far will be key.

@Flamerouge

I'm not a dog trainer or behaviourist so this is just what I would try.

I'd do very short street walks daily, either early morning or evening when it's quieter. Have him on a short lead and if a cyclist, other dog etc. approaches stop and say no calmly when he pulls towards them. Carry high value treats and if he reacts better than normal give lots of praise and a treat. If you know anyone with a dog could you arrange to meet up (outdoors) to try and socialise him? If he hasn't been neutered I'd consider getting him done.

No idea what to do re the chasing cars, mine did this as a puppy but he grew out of it.

If you don't try and get him used to other dogs and walking on a lead in busy areas now it'll be even harder when he's older.

Re neutering: our vet advised they wouldn’t consider doing it until he is physically mature, which he isn’t yet. I’m aware as well that neutering can sometimes make fear-based reactivity worse in some cases.

It’s not a socialisation issue with him. He spends a lot of time with MILs dog and plays well with her and with the dogwalker’s dogs. It's reactivity, and the issue is that his stress threshold is so low at the moment. When he is triggered by something being too close, you cannot get him to focus on anything - not me, not treats. He is strong, and will pull, bark and lunge to make the threat go away. There is nothing I can do other than hold on to him at that point and it’s stressful me and for him. There is no chance of getting him to calmly walk on. It’s also self-reinforcing behaviour - the car is a threat, he barks at the car - and the car then goes away. The other dog is a threat - he barks at the dog, the dog goes away.

What we’re trying to do is increase his threshold by letting him see triggers at a distance, when he can focus on having a treat without it stressing him out. It’s so tough - you can do a really good walk with him and in the last two mins a jogger will go by and we’ll be back to square one. Lockdown has made everywhere so busy - I cannot get 30 secs down the road without seeing cars, joggers or other dogs. And as soon as that happens he is over his threshold and unreachable.

Could you teach him "focus" so that he is focused on you, with eye contact.
If you can get that one down, then maybe telling him to focus before the trigger can trigger him might help a bit.

Also not a trainer or behaviourist but this is what I would do:

• I would increase the length of walks BUT I would do them in calm, quiet surroundings on a longer leash.

I would aim for a nice, long, calm, ‘sniffy’ walk.

• I would teach a settle command and enforce this pretty much all the time in the house.

• I have zero tolerance for herding nips and would verbally correct and put in time out each and every time.

• other dogs, mine doesn’t lunge but she’s real uncomfortable, to the point she’ll snap (no contact) if they get too close.

I find that collies generally speaking dont tend to be particularly dog sociable breed and all current and ex owners I’ve spoken to have said much the same. At best they are politely indifferent I find. I’d focus on getting a good recall and teaching him to associate ignoring other dogs with treats.

• bikes, joggers and cars I assume would be inappropriate herding.

Collies are renowned for trying to control the movement of bikes, joggers and cars. Mine was okay with single bikes and single joggers but not multiples. She grew out of it. Cars, she still isn’t 100% reliable. I was never able to properly fix it but another collie owner on here ages ago suggested giving a treat at the noise of the car approaching, before the car itself is visible (if I remember rightly), basically conditioning the dog to associate the sound of an incoming car with a treat so instead of going into herding mode they look to you instead. I’ll try it if I ever get another collie.

I think the major issue you have in trying to fix it really is that lockdown has made everywhere so busy.
You need to be sufficient distance away that he sees but isn’t reacting.
If he’s too stressed to take a treat he’s way too close

@MrsAntiSocial all very thoughtful, thank you. Agree if he can’t take a treat he is too close. However, my OH doesn’t drive, so I have to do all dog walks as pavements are currently too much for him. Not the dog’s fault, but it takes its toll when you can’t have a day off walking him, especially this time of year. Lockdown feels like it has made it impossible to find quiet places. Feels like an impossible circle to square right now.

Sniffing is great, yes. We often get him to ‘find’ treats as he walks to help relax him.

Herding nips: agree. He gets a time out now every time. I have to get close enough to him to put his lead on him which is tricky when he is wound up and nipping at you.

He has a herd ball which he loves. When he is focussed on frisbee/ ball he won’t react to things at all.

Settle: yes, we’re working on this with some success. He is awful in the ten mins before he goes to sleep, he is currently wandering the living room with his lead on while we encourage him to sleep...

He’ll often be ok with one or two triggers, but they stack up and as he is young he doesn’t have the control to keep his emotions in check, so it’s often the third or fifth thing that might set him off.

I don’t want to seem like he only has negatives! He is brilliant with house training and a dream to put in his crate at night. If you say ‘bedtime’ he’ll sprint up the stairs, so keen is he! I know things will improve as he gets older and this strange set of circumstances change. I think a lot of his issues come from not ever being able to switch off. Here’s a picture of him.

Oh - re cars. He has amazing hearing so will hear a car before I do. At which point he starts to look for it to lunge/ bark at. So no way to give him a treat in time.

And apologies for thread hijack! It’s just I feel that they are a complicated breed and it’s great to hear from people with breed-specific experience.

@Flamerouge everyone has given great advice so far, sorry I don't have much to add. My Collie isn't really typical of the breed, he absolutely loves other dogs and people, he's not wary of strangers, and isn't fussed by cars, bikes, joggers etc. When he was a pup he was nervous and timid around other dogs, but I know lots of people with dogs I could socialise him with, and he could play off lead with them at his own pace which really helped (it was pre pandemic which helped too!). Can I just say how cute he is, he is a very good looking boy!! P.S I LOVE that picture above your fireplace

@Flamerouge have you tried not walking him?

Not forever obviously, lol, but for a couple of days... the stress hormones build up, if you can break that cycle of him going over threshold it can help loads.

The pic of the collie and the kitten 😍

@LittleBoPeep95 thank you - it’s just an IKEA one. He is very handsome, isn’t he! He has just had his first taste of snow in the garden and was very excited.

@tabulahrasa thank you. I had heard of giving him days off walks. I guess I feel bad as he has already dropped to one a day and he is a teenage border. But no doubt I’m just projecting here. As soon as we have better weather and can spend more time in the garden then yes, maybe.

Plan for today is snow walk and then mandatory rest in crate.

“I guess I feel bad as he has already dropped to one a day and he is a teenage border. But no doubt I’m just projecting here”

Little bit, lol, I’ve been there... but when you realise that a walk where he’s gone over threshold isn’t at all enjoyable for him, then it helps... or I found it did.

Have a google on trigger stacking.

There’s a Facebook gro caked reactive digs U.K. that’s worth joining btw.

How long have you had him @Flamerouge? It honestly looks like you are doing amazing. Sounds like he's had a really unsettling start to life but if you keep going with your training I'm sure he will get there x

@LittleBoPeep95 thank you - that's really kind. It's so helpful to talk to people who understand. We've had him almost 4 months. So not long. And given he ended up having 4 homes in his first 6 months it's not surprising he has a few issues.

@tabulahrasa yep, I've read up lots on trigger stacking! It makes perfect sense and I can see it happening with him. It's just trying to balance everything - currently his threshold is so low that he goes over it very quickly. I obviously don't want that to happen, but he does also need to go out, too.

This morning I couldn't face taking the car out (it would have been too dangerous with the snow) so I took him to the nearest dog park. It's only two mins away but even then there were cars going by on the way there. Once he got there he was fine for 20 minutes because I had his ball and he isn't interested in anything else when he has that. I then tried to get him to do some walking/sniffing but he gets distracted/wound up by off-lead dogs when he is on-lead so we could only do a bit.

I think part of my current struggle is winter plus lockdown plus two of us WFH plus reactive dog. I know it will all feel a bit better when the clocks change and there are more hours in the day - it's difficult when everyone has to go out in the same 6 hour slot!

We have a routine of doing to a secure field twice a week at the moment which really helps take the pressure off me and him.

I also need to get him a warning lead, I think.

It's good to know I am broadly on the right track with him.

Obligatory snow pic!

I have the same issues @Flamerouge and this quote from @MrsAntiSocial is exactly right. We are in the London suburbs and if we aren't plagued by cyclists and joggers, then it's bloody Deliveroo mopeds. It's massively difficult to work on at the moment and you have my sympathy. We also have trouble with my BC not liking visitors to the house; this was showing itself this time last year, I though "oh I must make sure I get lots of random visitors over to meet him" and WHAM... you know the rest. I do worry that a year of just us being here will have made that situation irretrievable.

I didn't quote!

"I think the major issue you have in trying to fix it really is that lockdown has made everywhere so busy."

Ah thanks @PseudoBadger - I'm sorry you are struggling, too!

Yes, although we aren't in London our road is busier than it has ever been with cars, delivery vans and children - all for obvious reasons. There are a couple of dog-walkers who have taken to having a nice chat on the pavement outside our house - which just means the dog goes crazy when he sees them! It's not like they are doing anything wrong, but it drives me insane as DDog has such a loud bark and gets so wound up by it. It just feels like there is no respite from things he'll react to at the moment...

We also have trouble with my BC not liking visitors to the house; this was showing itself this time last year, I though "oh I must make sure I get lots of random visitors over to meet him" and WHAM... you know the rest
You could try training a settle then asking him to settle and stay in his bed, calmly feeding treats when guests are there and make sure the guests ignore him completely and utterly.
If you think he might bite you could use a Baskerville muzzle, you can feed treats through that.
That’s how I would personally handle it

[quote tabulahrasa]@Flamerouge have you tried not walking him?

Not forever obviously, lol, but for a couple of days... the stress hormones build up, if you can break that cycle of him going over threshold it can help loads.[/quote]
Totally agree. Reactive dogs require a complete shift in your way of thinking. You cannot expose them more and more and hope they'll get better in time. It simply doesn't work like that in most cases.