Puppy food

[SingingGoldfinch]

Hi - I'm hoping to tap into the wisdom of mumsnet to help me through the minefield that is puppy food! We have a gorgeous 6 month old pup who we've been feeding safe raw diet breeder started him on. He's thriving and healthy but vet has raised concern that he's underweight and might not be getting all nutrition he needs from current diet. I'm well aware that some vets have issues with raw feeding so am bearing this in mind but obviously want the best for pup so am researching other options. Vet advised a puppy specific kibble such as Purina pro plan or Hills but reviews on nutritional value of these aren't great and they are high in grain and bulking agents which I'd rather avoid. There is so much choice out there and lots of great complete options with good nutritional reviews but it's a minefield! Does anyone have any recommendations of good, nutritious complete puppy kibble - and (at risk of opening a can of worms I know) any views on the benefits of moving an underweight puppy off raw and onto dried food?

Dog food comparison websites rate by analysing ingredients lists, their analyses do not allow for the pitfalls in rating dog foods by ingredients, described in the article I linked to which was written by three ladies who know far more than me about it.

As far as I am aware (I treat people, not critters so disclaimer there!) there are no scientific, peer reviewed, impartial studies or evidence to suggest that feeding dogs, or and kind of poodle/doodle grain free is advantageous in the absence of allergies or intolerances.
Our vet is of the same opinion, and she is also a Board qualified Veterinary Nutritionist with a PhD in canine nutrition.

I've read that article PoletoPole - does make sense.

Sorry to stand on a soapbox SingingGoldfinch, it just seems these days people are too happy to write off vet recommendations as marketing ploys which sometimes, albeit rarely, they are, if so, new vet required.
Its become yet another stick to beat owners with as if you arent feeding grain free, infused with angel tears McFabulous food which you need a second mortgage for you are clearly not doing right by them and should probably rehome them to someone who will. I exaggerate, Ive never actually see it taken that far on Mumsnet, but you see the point.

The best food for your individual dog will always be:

• one you can afford
• one which provides them 100% of their RDA of vitamins, minerals and nutrients
• one which your trusted vet is happy with them on
• one which they will eat

At the end of the day that will be different for every dog and every owner. Everyone has an opinion (I have many ) and it takes time to decide what`s right for you.

As a general matter, (not aimed at you SingingGoldfinch) if you cant trust your vet to give impartial advice you need a new vet. Not always ideal or easy, but you should feel you can trust your vet implicitly, and trust them to have you pets best interests at heart.

Vets/nurses get their nutritional training from hills/Royal canin/purina so what brands do you think they are trained to sell?
They will always offer this because it is what they know.

As others have said, if the food provides 100% RDA of everything and the dog does well on it, what else do you need? We feed our dogs the same brand our puppy's breeder has fed her dogs (working and trialling gundogs) for years: Skinner's Field and Trial. They do well on it, live long lives, and it doesn't cost a fortune, but it's not a 'McFabulous food' (copyright @PoleToPole - made me laugh).

The issues with grain free are not entirely surprising. Dogs evolved alongside humans, and almost all breeds can digest carbohydrates, though to varying extents.

We use Eden Hoslistic kibble. It’s great quality. The working dog mix is al OST identical to the normal mix, but is VAT exempt, so you get a 15kg bag of working for the same price as a 12kg bag of normal.

*almost

If your puppy is only 6months old and had a tummy bug then no wonder they’re a bit underweight. Tummy bugs can knock adult dogs for six, let alone a puppy.

If they’re on a complete food that they enjoy then I wouldn’t change it. I would up their daily intake slightly for a while and monitor their weight regularly over that time.

Are you weighing their food? Slightly more or less makes a big difference for small breeds.

He has been on a complete raw which comes in nugget form so we count the nuggets out - there's a recommended range so we could up it. He loves it and for that reason I'm inclined to stick with it (nothing to do with the fact I have a freezer drawer full of i) but I can't shake the concern raised by the vet. But then perhaps we just got an anti-raw vet - she was different to the vet we've seen before. Honestly - all this is doing my head in!!

Personally, when it comes to nutrition, I wouldn’t trust a vet.

There was another thread recently about raw and it was insinuated that vets recommend those foods just because the company also happens to manufacture prescription diets and because they are ‘designed by experts’

Imo, it’s abundantly clear to see that a food like Hills is exceptionally cheaply made with dirt cheap filler ingredients that dogs would never naturally choose to eat!
The main ingredients are usual maize/corn, wheat, oats, potatoes and rice.

Farmers complain about dogs mauling their sheep and killing their chickens.
When was the last time you heard a farmer complaining a dog had got in and eaten all the wheat seedlings?
Or stolen all the corn cobs?
Dig up all the potatoes?
Feeding a dog an almost vegetarian diet comprised almost entirely of grain and veg is imo abusive and not much different to feeding a rabbit a kibble comprised of chicken.

Dogs may technically be ‘omnivore’ but I would argue that they are clearly carnivores that are able to survive on non meat foods.
That doesn’t mean non meat is the best for them.
Their behaviour alone is clear they are predatory animals who are designed to eat meat.

If your puppy OP is genuinely underweight my first thought would be to check for worms and then try just feeding a little more food!
I certainly wouldn’t go changing a perfectly good, healthy food without first just increasing the amount and seeing if that helps.
The feed guidelines are just a guide afterall, they aren’t set in stone.
Even with lots of exercise, as a young dog my dog had to have less than the recommended amount or she would get fat.
They are guidelines.

but you should feel you can trust your vet implicitly, and trust them to have you pet`s best interests at heart
I’ve yet to meet one of those tbh.

Wise words snaplittledragon. That's the thing - I trust the vet we normally see (who has never raised concern about pup'a weight and saw him just a week before) but I didn't trust this most recent one who was all over the Hill's, Royal Canin and Purina - so tricky!

Snaplittledragon you have never met a vet who had an animal`s best interests at heart? What kind of crap vets have you met?!

Farmers complain about dogs mauling their sheep and killing their chickens.
When was the last time you heard a farmer complaining a dog had got in and eaten all the wheat seedlings?

Never, but I have also not heard of the starving people raiding grain bins, and that doesn`t mean humans cannot eat wheat.

SingingGoldfinch, why don`t you call your usual vet and talk to him about it then? He may help you come to a decision

I definitely don't want to start a fight about vets!!!

Good advice PoletoPole - I think I will do that.

you have never met a vet who had an animal`s best interests at heart? What kind of crap vets have you met?!
I honestly haven’t really rated any of the vets I’ve dealt with.
Some people have really great vets that they trust which is great and how it should be, it hasn’t unfortunately been my experience but I won’t go into detail as it will inevitably snowball into a fight about vets.

Never, but I have also not heard of the starving people raiding grain bins, and that doesn`t mean humans cannot eat wheat
I would argue that grain has always been a part of the human diet but it hasn’t been for dogs.
I’m fairly sure it was proven that remains of a Palaeolithic man some time ago had eaten a grain meal when he was alive.

Dogs in contrast, as far as I am aware have not been documented seeking out grain to eat.
The only time they have eaten grains is when they have scavenged cooked grain foods left by people or been deliberately fed them by people.

We know dogs can survive on grain, I wouldn’t lose sleep over a dog getting a tiny topping of wheat biscuits with its dinner but I really take objection to feeding dogs diets composed almost entirely of grain.
Which these god awful vet recommended diets are.
It isn’t what they would choose to eat.

Anecdotal of course, but I do wonder if the apparent sudden rise in sick dogs is in part due to the creation of kibble and the feeding of high grain diets which are not imo anywhere near the natural diet of the dog and do not support best health.
Dogs in the past were largely fed on meat scraps and seemed much healthier.
But then they also weren’t overbred/had bigger genetic diversity so who knows.

Low meat diets just don’t sit well with me I’m afraid.

Burns chicken and rice mini bites burnspet.co.uk/dog-food/puppy-mini-chicken-rice/

That is very depressing to hear Snaplittledragon, I am not looking for a fight about vets, there are crap ones out there, but the majority I have known truly do have the animal`s best interests, rather than their wallets, at heart.

That is not strictly true about dogs and grains, way back when, dogs would have eaten the stomachs, intestines, bowels etc of their prey animals which would have contained partially digested grains, vegetables etc and which made it unnecessary for them to seek out such diet additions separately.

Of course dog food shouldnt be mostly vegetarian, I dont think anyone would say differently, some kibbles are rubbish, some raw diets dont contain the correct RDAs. My grip with judging by ingredients lists is that they can be deliberately misleading, as "fresh meat" allows them to include the water content in the meat %, whereas ground dried meat, for example, doesnt sound as good to consumers but does actually have more meat.

Or people are prepared to treat their dogs now, and optimise their health whereas they didn`t so much years ago and so many ailments went untreated?

So vets are insistent he sho

ooops - shouldn't stay be on the raw diet and it's in his notes. We're advised to keep him on gastrointestinal food until poos firm up then gradually introduce an alternative. research required I think!

Yes vets said that to me too.
For context, my dog as a puppy developed giardia and was quite poorly.
Regularly had diarrhoea/colitis, never did terribly well on any food.
Went on raw and after a short adjustment period had no more diarrhoea, lovely shiny coat etc.
But the vets wouldn’t have it.
She should be on Hills/Royal Canin dry food.
I no longer feed raw exclusively as I just don’t have the space, she is on good quality canned.

If you are nervous you could try a good quality high meat canned?
Mines on Natures Menu country hunter.

Is he insured SingingGoldfinch? If so, do check that going against vets recommendations won`t cause them to deny a claim if (and hopefully not!!!) his gastro issues escalate, or he has recurring issues in the future.
As they have put in his notes I would be a bit wary about that, underwriters usually review notes before paying out claims, and any inkling of not following a vets advice can make them see a get out of paying opportunity.

That's exactly my concern PoletoPole - I'm going to have a close look at policy.

I was really happy with him on raw, totally get all the benefits of it and he loved it too so feeling disappointed but at the end of the day I just want him to be healthy and happy (and to have solid poos). I'm just not convinced by the Royal Canin and Hills options they are pushing so exploring options.

It's just a shame when you're doing what you think is the very best for pup after lots of research but you're made to feel almost negligent after one upset tummy.

Our poodle cross came to us from the breeder on Burns puppy chicken and rice, we moved him over to raw nuggets and he was fine until he ate anything that wasn't the nuggets then we'd end up with tummy trouble. We slowly moved him over to Butternut with is cooked but similar ingredients to raw. We've had no tummy issues since and he also now get the occasional bits such as roast meat leftovers and cheese for training treats.