Another puppy biting thread SOS!

[Retrievemysanity]

Feeling so low and worn down today. We have an 18 week old golden retriever pup who we’ve had since 8 weeks old. First week was fab but then the biting started. It ramped up from 10 weeks but we did see some improvement a couple of weeks ago although things have gone backwards and now it feels worse than ever. She bites all of us and other people so it’s not restricted to just me or DH. Bloke at the park even commented that her teeth were a lot sharper than his 5 month old pup’s!

We’ve been using the Easy peasy Puppy Squeezy book which says to say ‘too bad’ and remove yourself from the situation for a bit but it doesn’t seem to be making much impact. A dog trainer also advised that we do this and said it’s probably teething related so we’ve carried on but it just feels like we are getting nowhere.

We’re on the dog training and advice support group on FB but the unit on there says it’s not teething, it’s attention seeking and not to ignore but redirect the biting with a toy. I always try and redirect with a toy before the bite happens but sometimes I’m not quick enough or she will move her head around the toy to get me.

We wear wellies in the house now to protect our ankles. So far this doesn’t deter her but at least it doesn’t hurt.

She has frozen carrots, fridge carrots, yak chews, pizzles, ears, lickimat, snufflemats. You name it, she’s got it! Spoke to the breeder who says it’s not normal and needs sorting before something bad happens. This has really stressed me out. I can’t think of anything else I can do. It doesn’t help that we are open plan and she has the run of the kitchen/diner although there is a pen she can go in but she barks continually in there unless she’s being fed.

I know she is teething as she’s lost a few already and if someone could assure me that in a few weeks this’ll resolve itself then that’d be great but I’ve heard lots of conflicting things from people on this point. All other things (house training, basic commands, eating etc) seem to be ok.

I’m so worried. I have 2 DD’s one has SEN, I got a retriever with her in mind because all I read said what lovely natures they have but this has terrified my DD I don’t think the other pups from the litter are like this and met the mum a few times and she’s lovely. Dog trainer thinks our pup is a lovely, soft, calm pup from what she’s seen (outside only) and to be fair, she is quite a calm girl on the whole it’s just like she can’t help herself with the biting. Can anyone help/reassure me?

@Nettleskeins she has a crate, we just don’t shut the door on it as she likes to come out and lie on the floor too! She goes to bed around 9.30pm and we go downstairs at 7am, most of the time she’s awake by then. Usually has 2 hour sleep in the morning, 2 hour sleep in the afternoon and then a sleep after tea. We don’t stroke her while she’s asleep. Our house is open plan though and she’s in the kitchen/diner so she does get people walking around to make drinks or food which disturbs her but there’s nothing we can do about that as there’s nowhere else she can go. With corona restrictions, all the puppy classes I had booked have been cancelled so no, she doesn’t get the opportunity to play with other puppies really unless we bump into any at the park but I usually have her on lead there. She gets 2 outings a day, usually one walk one run around doing recall or fetch, I play with her in the house and do training sessions so it’s not like she doesn’t get attention.

@Sarahlou63 she’s not that keen on frozen tea towels and she now prefers carrots from the fridge rather than freezer, not sure if the frozen stuff is too hard for her gums at the mo.

Have you tried a pathetic whimper rather than a yelp @Retrievemysanity ? I've had 7 retriever pups over the years, and yes, those teeth are sharp - mine have all responded better to the whimper, they generally look very concerned as you "cry", lay it on thick!

Hi @Retrievemysanity
Yes, I've had so many people tell me the biting is normal and to be expected, but then call it the 'nippy phase'. This is a lot more like full on biting when ours gets over excited, so I think some breeds and some dogs must be more bitey than others. My dad's retriever never did it at all.

Sleepwise, I think we have messed up. We initially only bought a canvas crate, which she just chewed. Then we got a metal one, which is much better and it is within a playpen. She has discovered she is small enough to squeeze through some of the playpen bars. We are doing crate training a few times a day, but she isn't sleeping in there at night yet. So, someone is sleeping on the sofa each night and settling her, which involves sitting in the playpen with her. This can go on for around an hour, so she is rarely in bed before 12.30, then wakes around 3am and again around 6am. It is hard going!

@catsrus 7 retriever pups?! I am currently thinking never again lol! Not tried a pathetic whimper but I did try pretend (although almost real!) crying after seeing owners on Instagram fake crying and being consoled by their adoring goldies. Mine seemed to relish my distress and bit harder

@FeelinglikeEeyore oh my life, yes ‘nipping’ makes me ragey! To me, a nip is a quick, almost pinching, play like bite that my hamster used to do but like you say, this is a full on, jaws around arm/leg/ankle! She hangs off clothes, rips them, all sorts. Regards the sleeping, what happens if you just leave her? I only say that because we were on the sofa until ours was 10 weeks but we were in the lounge separated by a stairgate and she was loose in the kitchen/diner and she would just go to sleep herself when we did around 10.30 and would only get up for the toilet but would go back to sleep quickly.

Oh dear - I have to say that usually they are very sweet and don't like to think they are hurting you.

It might be that she is over tired? Try more sleep if you can.

I assume you've been told the "fold your arms and look at the ceiling" trick? No eye contact until she is calm.

@catsrus it’s so tricky. She is a calm pup, lots of people remark on it. Even after she bites, she will sit calmly. We don’t get a lot of zoomies or things that other people mention, it’s hard to explain but it’s like she can’t help herself biting us. As I mentioned above, we are open plan downstairs so her sleep does get disturbed in the day sometimes particularly if the kids are around but I’d say she does get a lot of sleep and the biting can occur even straight after a nap so whilst sometimes,
like before bed, I could say well she’s tired, I couldn’t say that every time if you know what I mean. The trainer we’ve had said she seems a lovely, soft pup and she is, she’s a very sweet girl but she is just so bitey. We went to the park today and a few people remarked how good she is for four months-she’ll sit nicely by a bench for example and there are loads of positives but the biting is just so wearing when I feel we’ve tried everything and literally nothing seems to make any difference except continually plying her with food and chews and not interacting with her which obviously isn’t good

Hmm. What lines is she from? Show or working? (Crudely, is she pale and plump or dark and slim?)

Retrievers are bred to have very strong mouthing instincts as their job is to retrieve (my friends collie used to herd small children into the corner of the garden, she couldn't help herself 🤣). Some are instinctively mouthy.

If this is bite not over excited nip, then I would recommend you do some more retriever-like work to redirect.

teach a "hold it" command. You can use a toy or old rag. Something with a satisfying body to hold though, about the width of an arm. You can get training dummies, but an old kids soft toy from a charity shop will do. Keep it safe, up high, don't use it as a toy, keep it for this. Start with a few seconds hold them "give". Then "good hold" in an enthusiastic voice. Start with a few seconds and build up gradually. Your aim is to redirect what she does with her mouth. Over time you get get her to hold other things, but by using this one thing you are indicating a change of mode - "we are doing this special thing now"

All her instincts are to put things in her mouth and hold onto them, her ancestors were bred from because they were good at it, sounds like she's frustrated, all those instincts and nothing to do with them.

You have to be willing to sound like a bit of a twit when dog training, women tend to be better at it than men, we've done the enthusiastic praise for a poo in the potty ! Take a similar line. A few minutes every couple of hours just to do the "hold" and give (NO TREATS - if you have treats why would she hold a toy?) just enthusiasm.

She should begin to look forward to it and recognise what's going to happen.

You can progress to gently tossing the toy for her to catch - and THEN onto hiding it and playing "find it" but hold and give are your starting points.

She's got this mouth that needs to work, she doesn't know why, so you need to give it a job to do.

@catsrus she’s from a show line. So do you think it’s not teething related then? I’ll give the holding a toy a try, thank you. Oh yes, I’m very good at sounding like a twit . We play tug and she’s very good at ‘wait’, ‘get it’ and reasonable with ‘drop it’ which I’d been doing to get her to use her mouth more positively. We’ve had snow today and DH has been throwing her snowballs to fetch lol!

@retrievemysanity I would so love to leave her at night, but she howls the place down. If we try putting her to bed without going into the playpen to settle her, she bursts out of it and then is free in the dining room where my son has his computer, so lots of trailing leads to chew, etc. However, something has to change before we're back to wfh, so maybe we will try the crate in the kitchen. We've got as far as closing the crate door while she is eating so far. Did you say you haven't shut your door yet either?

@catsrus ours is dark and slim, which sounds like she is a working type retriever. Will definitely try the 'hold it' command. Anything to keep those teeth busy!

@Retrievemysanity it's not generally recommended that you play tug with the retrieving breeds - you're encouraging them to hold on and NOT release.

If you've got a "mouth" problem then only play games that encourage gentleness with the mouth.

With their siblings they would grab tails and ears and lumps of fur around the neck and pull and tug - you're her pack so she treats you the same way. You have to teach her that you're not a sibling, so I would really advise to stop the tugging games as she's not able to distinguish between the tug toys and your clothes and body.

If it's ok to grab and pull the toy - FUN YEAH - then why can't she do it with an ankle ?

Concentrate on "mouth gentle " games.

@catsrus thanks so much for helping. Someone had said that to me about the tug games but lots more said it’s good to do tug and get them to wait, get it and drop for self control. I feel like I don’t know if I’m coming or going sometimes. Any other games you can suggest? Photo of rabid beast attached.

@FeelinglikeEeyore no we don’t close the crate door but haven’t felt like we need to. She goes in a bigger pen while we eat and we close the door to that though otherwise she tries to get our food. Guess we were lucky then in that she has never howled, she just settles herself. Can you puppy proof the dining room? Just wondering how you cope with her in the day in there.

OMG, she is absolutely BEAUTIFUL, OP.

You are doing all the right things. She is so young.

We have a lab. She nipped and chewed the whole time until she was about 5 months... all of us looked like our legs and arms had been torn up rabbits every day. She particularly loved nipping my youngest DD (about 9 at the time).

We did all the tips & tricks, and eventually it got less and less and then stopped altogether.

We play tug A LOT, even now. Labs & retrievers are clever dogs. They quickly pick up on what's an 'allowable game' and what's not. Plus tug is EXHAUSTING for them, physically and mentally - a 5 minute game of tug with a plaited rope for your little one will really keep her entertained and exercised jn the house.

Ah - just seen that my tug advice contradicts @catsrus .

I can only speak from experience, and what our trainer advised. It was a game changer for us.

We also did and do a lot of sniffing games, which again, keep them occupied, and use brain and energy.

All dry meals (kibble) are given via a snuffle mat - still! and we also play 'treat in a bush', where we chop up chicken or sausage into tiny pieces, throw it into a bush in the garden, and she uses her nose to sniff out and eat the pieces.

It's really fun to watch and keeps them away from your ankles!

I know @Retrievemysanity - so much conflicting information. I've had retrievers for over 30yrs and I'm still learning

Look at it like this - what you are doing isn't working. We don't know if the playing tug is a factor, but we do know it's getting her excited about holding onto something tightly with her mouth and not letting go, she's having fun, with you, using a bite.

Your main problem with her is that she holds onto you hard with her mouth and hurts you. 🤔

She doesn't know the difference between a hard "hold " for play and what we call a bite. She's not trying to bite you - if she was she would do real damage believe me - she's playing in a way that you have encouraged.

Talk to the rest of your family - make sure they are on board - and try a week of no play that involves tugging or shaking. Concentrate on soft holds and use the word "gentle" so that she learns a soft hold is being gentle.

You have to replace rough fun with more focussed, calmer, gentle attention.

You're creating what gundog people call a "hard mouth״. A GR should have a soft mouth - be able to retrieve an injured bird and bring it back alive to its handler.

This can be turned around - but the key thing I've learned over the years is that if the dog is doing the wrong thing then I'm giving it the wrong kind of information. (I've got a brilliant trainer who doesn't hesitate to say "well of course she's not doing it right Cats - you're confusing her" )

Completely normal. My pup was so bitey, it was really frustrating, had scratches on my arms and hands. We just used a dog trainer on you tube called MCCann dog training I think it was, that said to use the "Aa aa" command. So short sharp sound as soon as she did it. It would make her jump slightly and as soon as she bit "aa aa". Then withdraw your attention. Basically do this about 200hundreds times and they will learn. Will take about a month or two.

She is now 10 months and wouldn't dream of biting any of us. She has full mouth control and is really gentle.

@MyGazeboisLeaking ah, thank you, she is a gorgeous girlie. Yes, love playing tug with her usually and she’s so good at it. The trainer we have actually told us to play it! And it was one of the few things the kids could play from the safety of behind the stairgate. I have to admit my heart sinks at the thought of not playing it. We can’t walk her too far or play ball much because of her joints while she’s young so it seems like there’s hardly anything we can do with her that doesn’t involve food

@catsrus thank you. I do struggle to think of things to keep her entertained that don’t involve food and tug was the game I liked as it didn’t. But we would only play this a couple of times a day. But I’ve spoken to DH and we will try to find some other things we can do with her. Just find it quite sad for reasons given above. I know she could do real damage and so she’s not trying to but there was one occasion where I really did think she was going to crush my hand- my friend said she thought when I lift my hands out the way, that excites her more so I didn’t and she clamped round it and just kept putting more and more pressure on it

@Nochristmasbreak glad it worked out for you. I’m just worried as we’ve been withdrawing attention for weeks now and she’s still biting.

Loads of good advice here. I know it sounds weird but I think if you decide something is completely unacceptable and visualise what you want it helps with communicating with your pup. Simple things I did were:
Put favourite toys on ribbon so we could keep our fingers safe
Say a clear no to all unacceptable biting including of clothes. I used a very clear ouch, not like a puppy but like a human. I think it's fine to sound annoyed if you're hurt as long as it's immediate and very short. A quick loud ouch and withdraw attention for a short time.
If it continued put in crate for a sleep

I never got badly nipped and it quickly improved.

@Retrievemysanity How are you getting on? I hope things are improving?

We have moved our crate into the kitchen now. We're still taking it in turns to sleep downstairs, but at least we are in a different room now. She is sleeping in the crate if we put her bed in it, so that's progress.

We are now able to go out for walks, which is better, but she is still quite bitey and has regular 'mad' moments when she suddenly attacks all of us. She also goes looking for mischief around 8pm, seeking out wires to chew and things to steal. I think we probably need to play with her before the behaviour starts in order to avoid it.

Here's our little one

she's gorgeous @FeelinglikeEeyore, I get quite broody over puppies 😍

Just an observation though - if she's getting bitey and having a mad moment that late at night it might be overstimulation rather then needing to be played with. She should be sleepy and getting ready to settle by that time in the evening.

try a kong with peanut butter (100% PB - no palm oil, it's toxic) just a tablespoonful smeared inside - including where it's hard to reach (use fingers, its yuck but effective). You want to keep her calmly occupied for as long as possible.

@FeelinglikeEeyore your pup is lovely Well done with the crate process.

Ours is still bitey. If she’s occupied eating (kong or lickimat type things) she’s fine but if not she’s bitey. I have started the absoluteDogs sexier than a squirrel course but as soon as I try the games with her, she goes mad, leaping up to bite me etc Lots of blood all over her toys yesterday though and some more teeth lost and wobbly so definitely teething. Funnily enough, she’s not so bad in the evening. We give her a long lasting chew like a pizzle and she will have that calmly until bedtime.

I did have a little cry last night when the school closures were announced. I couldn’t see how I was going to cope with helping my youngest with school work while also making sure eldest didn’t disturb the dog and get bitten etc but thankfully eldest has been given a school place.

Thank you @catsrus I would love it if she was calm in the evenings, so will definitely try more calming activities. I gave her a kong with peanut butter last night, but she didn't take much notice. I think she often has to have a few goes at things before she gets them, so will definitely try again. She loves her lickimats. They work really well.

@Retrievemysanity I'm so sorry your lovely girl is still so bitey. Yes, the news about school closures must be so hard with younger ones. Glad your eldest has a school place. Mine are 13 and 16, so perfectly capable of helping with the dog. Whether they actually do is a different matter.

I also started the Sexier than a squirrel course a few days ago. I love the idea of using their food for games that reinforce the bonding, but I've had the opposite reaction to you and mine just won't get into it. Even with the orientation game, she just pads over, crunches the food then slowly wanders off, maybe glancing up at me on the way if I'm lucky. Maybe her food is too boring? Maybe I'm too boring? Can I ask when you walk your pup? At the moment, I'm going round the block with ours at 7.30am and doing a longer one mid afternoon (I've only worked mornings this week), so I'm wondering if walking her later would combat the evening madness?

We had a minor breakthrough in that she slept through until 5.30 this morning. However, she then let herself down by pooing and weeing in the living room while I was working and the kids were in online lessons.

@FeelinglikeEeyore that made me laugh about the games! Maybe we need to merge our pups lol! Mine is sooooo food orientated!

Mine aren’t that young but the 12 year old has SEN and is at special school and the 10 year old likes reassurance that she’s doing the right thing bless her and often denies that they’ve ever learnt in class whatever the teacher sets them online!

Re walks, DH usually takes her out first thing either for a walk round the block or to the place in the park where lots of dogs play together. She then naps most of the morning so I will take her out at lunchtime. We vary what we do but today DD and I took her to the field for offlead recall practice, bit of fetch and general messing about. She then slept but is up now with a kong. I take her out now if we haven’t managed to do one of the other outdoor sessions. She usually sleeps after tea for a bit and then is up 8-9.30 with a long lasting chew and some calming games/grooming etc.