L2 and L4

[PuppyPlanning]

Hi all,

Hoping someone can give me some advice. Collecting puppy at 8 weeks. Vet said he needs one at 8 weeks, and another 4 weeks later. They give L4.

Breeder said she would “strongly recommend” doing L2, as this way “pup will be able to be out and about at 12 weeks”

From what I’ve understood from the vet, L4 would also allow pup to be out at 12 weeks? I’m worried that I’m missing something...

Sorry, maybe confusing.

Vet basically said L4 injection at 8 weeks, and again 4 weeks later, out anytime after this.

Breeder said L2 injection at 8 weeks, another 2 weeks later, and a 2 week wait until he can be out safely.

But both sound to me like puppy will be safely out at 12 weeks?

L2 and L4 are the Lepto vaccinations.

The "main" one is DHP.

Personally I wouldn't give L4. L2 covers the two main strains in the UK and anecdotally there's a lot of dogs reacting to the L4.

You should technically wait a week or two after the 2nd L4 to ensure immunity builds (ask your vet how long they recommend).
If you don't get the L4 there will be 2 strains of Leptospirosis your dog isn't vaccinated against. Ask your vet if there have been many cases of these strains in your area.
Also, consider her risk. If she's going to be a mainly indoor dog who goes on short potters on the pavement her risk is much lower than an active breed that will be out in the park and swimming in rivers and lakes every day. Leptospirosis is transmitted by rats in bodies of water.

Is the breeder not vaccinating your pup before you collect? You need to use the same one they do or start again

The breeder said she’s had issues with vets refusing to carry on with vaccinations, so she now recommends each new owner agrees with their vet about their own vaccination schedule.

I feel like L4 would be safest, as he will be out in fields and swimming etc.

Worried about how to start our puppy classes safely now, leaving enough time for immunity to build properly.

We collect him on 29th December. Puppy classes start on 4th Feb... Does this seem too close?

My pup was given L4 by the breeders vet. My own vet - different area - uses the same so obviously both vets recommend this. D pup has second lot of other vax at 10 weeks then was able to go out. Vet just recommended avoiding water ways and high risk areas but socialising with other dogs was fine. Final L4 at 12 weeks. It wouldn't affect your puppy classes as long as he's had the other vax

*The breeder said she’s had issues with vets refusing to carry on with vaccinations, so she now recommends each new owner agrees with their vet about their own vaccination schedule.
*

This is probably due to more vets giving L4. My ex just for a puppy who came with an L2 and he had a job finding a vet to do the next one. He's not been able to use the vet he planned to.

Thanks @midnightstar66. Will stick with our vets, L4, and puppy classes on 4th Feb!

Thanks everyone, feel much better about it all now

Happy new puppy - enjoy! Mine is 9 months now and is the best little companion.

Thankyou! We are so excited!! We lost our much loved, old labrador at the beginning of lockdown. We assumed puppy prices/availability would mean that it would be a long wait, when we eventually started looking.

When the breeder of our old dog found out, she called to say that she was having a litter, and we could have a puppy from her again. He’s a different colour, so it doesn’t feel like replacing our lovely old boy, but feels like a lovely tribute to him, to have a little distant relative somehow.

Can’t wait for the end of December now!

Your puppy will not (cannot) have completed her parvovirus vaccination schedule by 12 weeks so cannot be "out and about" anyway. Leptospirosis is not the most serious or prevalent disease she can encounter.

@villainousbroodmare

Your puppy will not (cannot) have completed her parvovirus vaccination schedule by 12 weeks so cannot be "out and about" anyway. Leptospirosis is not the most serious or prevalent disease she can encounter.

Parvo can be covered by 10 weeks. DHP can be given either in 2 doses, the first from 6 weeks (although more commonly given at 8) with the second 10 weeks or older, or as a single dose at 10 weeks or older.

@villainousbroodmare that's not correct. Some vets hold back and give it at 12 weeks along with the lepto to save their time especially if on a puppy plan, but others will get you in at 10 weeks as mine did so puppy can be out sooner. What is correct is that lepto is less common/risky which is why puppy can go out and meet other dogs, go to indoor puppy class etc as long as you take sensible precautions and avoid water ways, areas with bins etc.

A number of dogs have died after L4. Lepto 4 covers an additional two strains which aren’t really needed in the UK. Lepto 2 seems to carry lessor a risk. I’m impressed by vets who still offer L2 as it means they are on the pulse.

The people whose dogs died after lepton4 were told it was “coincidental” and many aren’t being reported so the overall numbers for Lepto 4 seem ok.

It seems worse in small dogs.

A dog around here died of Lepto two weeks after getting the Lepto vaccine - it reacted soon after the vaccine. The owner was told it was a “coincidence”. I have owned dogs my whole life and never vaccinate for lepto full stop.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow you may not see lepto as a big problem, but in my area we see equal amounts of lepto and parvo in dogs. This is because we have a canal and two rivers right through the centre of our town.
There are several different vaccines ( our practice sticks them all) nobivac and canigen have L2 and L4 versions the schedule allows a second DHP two weeks after the first as long as the pup is over 10 weeks of age. However there are some L3 vaccines out there Eurican would be and example.
In the US and certain other countries pups do not complete their vaccination courses till around 16 weeks of age as they follow the full WSAVA recommendations.
@PuppyPlanning have a good chat with your vet aboiut your local risk and then make a decision.

It’s not that I don’t see Lepto as a problem - I see Lepto 4 as a bigger problem. Lepto is treatable with prompt action. The side effects from L 4 are devastating. I live near several rivers - Lepto is everywhere. A guy round here got it from falling in a pond.

How many dogs die in the UK each year from Lepto?

If you can find a vet that does Lepto 2 take their advice. If your local vet only does Lepto 4, avoid.

So you're writing off swathes of expert professionals based on your bit of anecdotal evidence. Even the university teaching hospital here uses 4. Maybe because it's a city and we have lots of water sources and lots of rats, but they have ongoing research all the time by the worlds leading professionals yet you knew a dog that died and it might have been that so all these experts know nothing?

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow yes lepto is a bacterial disease that can be treated with antibiotics, but not every dog survives even with treatment. In particular the very young and very old are most vulnerable. Some of the dogs who survive will also have permanent kidney disease.
There are reactions with every medications and yes there have been some reactions to L4. But the level of reactions from the veterinary medicines regulatory is no greater with L4 than with any other vaccine.

I would trust your vet’s advice

I didn’t even know there was controversy about L4 until a couple of weeks ago. We have a foster dog currently who needed to restart his vaccinations. I see in his book, he has has L4. There’s been nothing wrong with him.

The figures I read said less than 7 dogs out of 10,000 have adverse reactions to L4, and 2 dogs out of 10,000 for L2? So L4 clearly has more adverse effects, but it’s still not many.

My vet does L4, and my instinct is usually to just take my vets advice. Interesting to hear all the opinions though.

I’m on a Facebook group for people whose dogs have suffered serious adverse affects from L4.

In almost every case the vet has said it’s a coincidence or not connected. I don’t even think many are reported. These are serious effects - deaths and permanent disabilities. Lots of people who have vaccinated their dogs generally for years absolutely devastated and astonished they weren’t told about the risks.

7 in 10,000 is actually a lot of you consider we vaccinate for Lepto yearly in this county and 2 are given. If you then consider the cases we don’t know about (see Facebook group I mention) then we actually don’t know.

I like my vet and discussed this with her. She admitted they often wouldn’t know about an adverse event if a dog came in a few days later and saw a different vet. I don’t know how robust the system is compared to human vaccines. (The HPV vaccine is another minefield).

I’m not generally anti vax but it’s a subject I’m interested in in terms of ethics/risk. I don’t believe vets themselves know the actual numbers and don’t advise accordingly.

For us to persuade people to vaccinate dogs (and people!) there must be faith and trust in the system. I remain sceptical and yes i believe I know more than your average vet on the issue.

I wonder if people who are concerned about pet vaccines are also concerned about the risks of autism from human vaccines?

Is the risk level the same anecdotally?

The plural of anecdote is not data...