Toilet training puppy - not giving any signals.

[Redwrecker]

Hi all,

I am really hoping someone can give me some advice as its wearing me down a bit and I am not sure how normal it is.

My 17 week old cavachon is not toilet trained. I have had her since 9 weeks. She gives no signals that she wants to go that I am noticing ( I’m thinking whining/going to the door) so whilst she does go outside to the loo around 50% of the time its purely because I take her out every 45 minutes or so!

I had puppy pads down in certain areas and her accidents do seem to happen in those areas. Sometimes she toilets on them/or near enough to know she tried but a lot of the time its just in the general vicinity. She never goes anywhere uncarpeted, always on carpet. I have pulled up the puppy pads in one room to see if that helps? But its not noticeabley different - shes mostly stopped number 2s there but still peeing every so often.

I do not punish for any accidents, or draw attention besides cleaning them up. I praise when she goes outside and give her a training treat immediately afterward.

Am I expecting too much? She has no problems holding her bladder through the night and sleeps through so it makes me wonder if she can smell the old accidents and assumes its a toilet spot?

You need to get rid of the puppy pads, clean the carpet with pet accident spray to break down the smell, and up the taking her out. I use puppy bells with my foster pups so that they can train me to open the door when they want, but you have to establish that outside is the right place, even if it means taking them out on a lead and waiting till they toilet - using a trigger word like busy or business - and making a big fuss each and every time. I take them to toilet every time they wake up, when they've eaten or drunk, and if its more than 30 minutes since they toileted, or if they show the least sign (circling, scraping etc). This is a lot easier if they are always in the same room as you.
Its a long, slow, boring process I'm afraid!

OK thank you, this is a bit reassuring!

I have been spot cleaning accidents, but have assumed that its not strong enough to eliminate the smells for her nose. I will get something stronger.

Will brave it and remove the pads, although given the amount of carpet accidents its not going to make a huge amount of difference!

I just want to be able to take her to my mums without worrying she will pee everywhere. (I can do this where I am in case anyone asks!)

I'd get rid of the puppy pads as well, they give mixed messages about where is okay to go to the toilet.

I'd also think about ditching the carpet as well tbh 😬

You really need to ramp up the praise to really ott levels when they do go outside.

@Girliefriendlikespuppies ha! Carpet scheduled to exit the building as soon as madam is toilet trained!! Luckily it is a super thin and cheap carpet! I am worried I am desensitised to the smell though - even got my mum to come sniff the house out last week!

Just had our first successful outdoor pee since I posted and ramped the praise up to ‘embarrassing myself in front of the neighbours’ levels so hope that will start to make a difference!

This idea that puppies will ask to be let out seems to be a Mn thing. Someone posted about it yesterday and was recommended to use bells! a mad idea.

Many puppies will not ask to go out ever. It is your job as an owner to give them opportunities to go out to wee.

A puppy will be fed three or four times a day so take them out after that. Take them out when they wake up. They will be going for short walks that is an opportunity to wee. You will be having short training sessions give them the chance to wee after that. Puppies should not be left long enough to have to consciously think I need a wee I had better start asking oh where is my owner etc for many dogs this is not going to happen

Your dog can smell the wee even if you can't so it does need to be cleaned with the correct cleaner.

If you want to take her to you Mum's give her the chance to wee before you go indoors, dont go in until she has weed. Then regularly take her outside and praise her when she goes. It will be even harder for her in a new location so you have to help her get it right. Take her out every half an hour at a new place.

Also make sure you always go with her outside. If she wees outside and does not get any praise this will confuse her. Every wee needs to get praise for being in the right place.

(I dont think my big dogs ask to go out unless ill - they know they will have opportunities to go out and I dont make them hang on to long ever to wee)

Haha Red re the ott praise!! I def embarrassed myself in front of the neighbours when we trained our puppy!!

Has the puppy got grass to pee on outside? They like soft areas to pee on.

We have bells! And ddog learned to ask to go out by ringing them very quickly. Honest! I didn't even train him to. I kept them on the door handle and they hang down to almost touch the floor. He worked out that for the door to open, the bells had to ring. So he poked them with his paw to ring them. He is two and still does it now. Always rings the bells to go out. The only time in the day that I get him to go out on my terms is last thing at night. Otherwise he asks by ringing the bells. (Disclaimer: sometimes he doesn't want to go for a wee. It's because the local cat is sitting on the compost heap)

As for signs - sniffing and circling were signs ours wanted to go out as a puppy.

The bells teach them the door opens ........

I had a dog that only peed INDOORs, and would hold on till we came back from park, walks etc.
I read up on crate training/toileting aspect thereof, cleaned all floors with white vinegar and started again with a crate/pen from basics. Puppy asleep/playing in crate, or outside. Only two options for a week. Was Feb/march, so cold...will then start to inevitably associate toileting with cold outside surface either grass or paving but not wooden floors, lino or worst of all puppy pads/carpet.
It worked, though dog still occ triggered by the landing carpet!!

Yes the bells work because they know how to get the door opened. But then you have less missed signals (such as sitting at the door, whining) because the bells are louder.

Of course they have to know that toileting outside means treat etc and is the desired behaviour. But it helps massively because if you don't miss the quiet requests there are less mixed messages.

I stayed outside with puppy whilst awake, btw, until pee forthcoming, then back in crate indoors I stayed next to crate at all times so no bad associations. Just a week to completely reset the association's. Puppy won't pee or poo on your lap or on sofa, or in crate, cos that is her bed zone. Similarly, where food and water zone is tends to be avoided as toilet area so if you have a problem with her going back to a particular spot to per, move bed there (in crate) or move food and water there.

Ours woofs and runs round in a circle for a poo, pee is more subtle but we are getting there.
Also never scrub pee stains
Get rid of the pads
When pup has accidents remove her to the area you want outside and give a cue word/phrase.

When they use the spot use cue word and decent treat have a play in garden and come in. Our guide dogs use this effectively, our current pup isn’t guide dog though but golden retriever so hopefully will crack it soon. And they will pee on any surface, we don’t have grass and if you’ve got a decent lawn you don’t want pee to ruin it. My mums dogs ‘go on the stones’ my dog knew that’s where he went when we visited. My pup goes to his corner, easily trained whilst small. Good luck

Asking to go out only starts when the association is so strong that pup doesn't want to pee indoors.
I never used bells, pup would whimper or scratch or bark to go out, once habit established but never before, only warning would be irritability, agitation, increased nipping hyperactivity etc. I don't think pups want to pee indiscriminately, they genuinely aren't sure what to do.

The thing is that puppies don’t know they shouldn’t wee or poo inside. So they won’t ask to go out.
If you’re on FB look at the dog training advice and support group. They have great files on toilet training.
The idea is for you to make sure the puppy is out when they need to go. So after eating, drinking, sleeping and playing. Plus every half an hour at least too! And if they don’t go? Come in but watch them like a hawk! First sign of circling etc. And out again.
And yes. Do ditch the pads.
You need a specific cleaner. Enzyme?? Not bleach or anti bac.
Good luck.

I have a bichon mix btw so doesn't like cold wet surfaces (low tum) I suspect bigger dogs catch on a bit quicker cos more comfy on outdoor surfaces.

A big flagon of white vinegar(you can get cleaning type, 100 percent vinegar) is all you need to stop smell triggering puppy to use same spot.
Grass can take it, esp with little dogs!! I wouldn't be too precious about that...also useful to cue and avoid them peeing on stone floors indoors, shopping arcades etc. Grass is only found on walks!

We used to miss the subtle signals so trained him to use the bells. Once he knew bells meant outside I removed them and he now does a paw at the door and will woof (very distinctive from other woofing) if we aren't in the room. I have even known him to nudge me awake in the night me and check I am getting out of bed to let him out.

However it was a slow process. I think the key is when young to minimise any accidents which means taking them outside lots and going over the top with praise. Then start to introduce a key phrase so they start to associate toileting with that. Then eventually they realise that outside is where they should be toileting and start to indicate they want to go out.

The minute the pup wakes up, quickly rush outside so that the first pee or poo is in the garden, outdoors, that is the first habit to create, then praise. As dog is peeing, use cue word so action and word is linked in dogs mind with praise, good feelings.

Hi,

Thanks for all the comments.

I am taking her out first thing in morning, at night before bed and after naps and meals. I really am outside every 45 mins or so, and since I posted have probably increased this!

I also always go out with her, to ensure I don’t miss any good behaviour to praise. (Also because I am paranoid about dog theft/dog escaping!)

Since I’ve posted we’ve caught all pees outdoors, but did miss a number 2 (I was on a call for work unfortunately, however I’ve never stopped her mid go indoors before as I don’t want to frighten her!). Pee pads are up and I am currently going round each problem area with white vinegar spray and shutting the room off whilst it dries out, so lets see how that goes. If it does not deter I may need an alternative cleaner, but the WV spray was what else I had to hand tonight.

To answer some other questions - no grass unfortunately, I have a courtyard. However, she doesn’t see to have any issues/anxiety about peeing on it when she does go, she has a few preferred spots.

No bells for me, door doesnt really allow for it and I think the noise would disturb, but thanks for the suggestion.

I also do keep her in the main room with me most if the day - I work from home so she isn’t alone much but it does have the stairs and due to the house’s non traditional shape/size a babygate does not fit safely. I’ve decided to shut all doors up there except the one she likes to go in to sit at the low window (and survey the kingdom!)

I’m happy to keep on pushing on and hopefully with some vigorous and persistence she will get on better. She’s doing well in other training aspects (on the lead, with kids and can do sit/paw) so hope is not lost :)

Any other tips, or cleaner recommendations and I will be happy to hear them! Roll on when I can get new flooring!

I found that taking them out every 45 minutes wasn't in itself enough, unless they were restrained from toileting by being in a "bed/territory" situation in crate or smallish pen when not in garden, UNTIL it was engrained. I wasted a lot of energy trying to take pup out all the time when he could hold for two hours if he "wanted to" (ie in crate).
It sounds as if you have turned corner already though.

And then when they have toileted after the crated time, you can let them have run of main room for a little bit, before crating again for a nap, then outside, pee, play indoors, rinse repeat! The minute they wander off at this stage, even though it is sweet, you are encouraging them to find a new little corner somewhere else in house, alas. Yes you can live with it, most pet owners are very forgiving but as you know it means taking them to someone else house becomes an anxious vigil.
I say all this with hindsight, but dpup,/ddog is pretty good now and was always good when I supervised reinforced.

@Nettleskeins i agree on the point with regards to finding a new spot, so hoping the door closures to the majority of the ‘usual haunts’ will help.

I don’t feel comfortable with crating her (this not a criticism of the method, i’ve heard it great!) as we’ve not crated at all and I also don’t have a crate.

But yes, we do appear to have improved a bit with my over enthusiastic praise. I also dug my winter gear out to ensure a more patient owner when outdoors!

No crate after 5 months, I really just used it for sleep and toilet training..he was very cosy in it and slept beautifully until he graduated to sleeping beautifully on the sofa instead!

Our puppy hasn’t arrived yet, but I have downloaded a toilet training app. You basically log when you feed etc, and when they toilet (including accidents in the house) and it starts giving you reminders if you haven’t taken them out, and their past history tells the app that you need to.

Haven’t used it yet, as puppy isn’t here. But it may be worth using alongside everything else, if only to ensure that you’re taking her out regularly enough