Tell me your experience of your 'small breed' please

[Whitney168]

Having had a large coated breed for 30+ years, I am fancying adding a small dog to the house. with the big'uns.

I would love a Cavalier, but the more I read about the health issues, the more I am concerned.

My inclination is towards something more 'toy' than 'terrier' for temperament and outlook. There are some small terriers I like, but I have no wish to own a dog that isn't amenable to other dogs and makes walks difficult, although as I'm typing this I think that i.e. Westies I don't particularly see as an issue when out, so maybe that's unfair.

Would prefer a stable confident outgoing temperament, without being bolshy - am not keen on 'flighty' breeds.

Would happily have a wire coated Jack Russell if I could guarantee I got a nice one, but they seem to be saints or devils.

I don't really want anything that needs major grooming, have enough of that with the big dogs, but obviously clipping is an option.

I wouldn't be automatically averse to a crossbreed, but the chances of getting a responsibly bred one are so vanishingly small that I think that's probably off the table.

Breeds I've seriously considered:

• Cavalier King Charles (health concerns)
• Tibetan Spaniel (noise?)
• Lhasa Apso/Shih Tzu (would keep clipped) - no experience of them to know temperament.

Ermmmm ... what else am I missing? Tell me about your small breeds please ...

When I say I'm scared of breaking a small one, I mean very small and fine boned, i.e. Yorkshire Terrier, Italian Greyhound type thing. No worries with something a bit more robust

Yorkies are pretty robust IME. Current one is teeny but no special measures to avoid breakage :). He happily plays with my mums collie sized dog, and holds his own.

There are also several breeders who have larger than average lines. Our last yorkie was nearer cairn size, a very strong little dog. Bred that size to enhance a show line and move away from the smaller end, and also to eliminate the knee subluxing you get in very small dogs.

I always think yorkies are proper dogs. No different to any other, just smaller scale.

Jack Russell

How about a Parsons Terrier? Intelligent, playful and good on long walks.

I would say a cavapoo- mine is brilliant, he’s lively on walks but cuddly too.He was a playmate for my chocolate lab.
I also have a working cocker spaniel and he could run for hrs.
And finally I had a parsons jack Russell years ago who was tough but fun.Taller than jack russells so sturdy enough to run with the big dogs

I do wonder about the ubiquity of poo dogs, but I think the cavapoo is an excellent choice. KCS have such awful heart issues and I think they're a breed that does need new blood.

I think the cavapoo is best of both dogs - obviously reputable breeder is a must , but seems to negate some of the issues with the full KCS .
Mine is such a character , loves squirrel hunting but he does love a cuddle.
He’s quite robust too.

but I think the cavapoo is an excellent choice. KCS have such awful heart issues and I think they're a breed that does need new blood
I agree that the Cavalier (amongst others) is in desperate need of outcross, but I doubt that most cavapoo breeders actually know what they are doing with regards to DNA testing, heart scans, studying pedigrees etc

I think most of the better, and by that I mean genuine family hobby breeders as opposed to dealers and commercial breeders, are simply putting together nice, friendly cavaliers and poodles that appear healthy and assuming that the pups will have so called hybrid vigour because they are a cross and have no issues.
It doesn’t really work like that though!

My Mum has a cavi cross dearest little dog I've ever met

I think the cavapoo is best of both dogs - obviously reputable breeder is a must , but seems to negate some of the issues with the full KCS.

Honestly, if you can point me in the direction of a reputable breeder (i.e. one who does all necessary specialist tests for both breeds) of Cavalier x Poodle crosses, I'll eat my hat - and this cross certainly doesn't negate the health risks that I'd be looking to have tested in a pure-bred Cavalier, so although the wait would be long, a properly tested Cavalier would (eventually!) probably be the safer bet.

@MrsJunglelow

but I think the cavapoo is an excellent choice. KCS have such awful heart issues and I think they're a breed that does need new blood I agree that the Cavalier (amongst others) is in desperate need of outcross, but I doubt that most cavapoo breeders actually know what they are doing with regards to DNA testing, heart scans, studying pedigrees etc

I think most of the better, and by that I mean genuine family hobby breeders as opposed to dealers and commercial breeders, are simply putting together nice, friendly cavaliers and poodles that appear healthy and assuming that the pups will have so called hybrid vigour because they are a cross and have no issues.
It doesn’t really work like that though!

Absolutely!

@Whitney168 I have a cavapoo from a reputable breeder. I have absolutely no question whatsoever that this breeder is entirely ethical and checks her dogs out properly.

have absolutely no question whatsoever that this breeder is entirely ethical and checks her dogs out properly
What makes you say that?
Before lockdown we were looking at getting a second dog, we had a shortlist of breeds other than the one we currently have and we couldn’t find a single breeder, many of them KC accredited doing all of the tests available for the breeds we were looking at.

So I am more than a bit sceptical that your breeder had a ‘proper’ outcross programme where extensive health testing and lines research was being done to eliminate health issues and create the healthiest possible puppies.

@mrsjungelow

you can be as sceptical as you like but given you don't know who the breeder is you don't know that but yes, I do have a full lineage for both the cavaliers going back about 7 generation and also for the poodle. I have all the health tests. There are lots of unethical breeders, this is not one of them. But feel free to not believe me because it's a poodle cross and obviously it's dodgy but that's not the case at all

Laboklin has the following DNA tests for Cavaliers:

• muscular dystrophy £48
• Macrothrombocytopenia £48
• episodic falling (recommended KC test) £48
• dry eye and curly coat syndrome (recommended KC test) £48
• Degenerative myelopathy £66

That’s just DNA swabs telling you if they clear for the condition (can’t give it to pups) carrier (could if mated to another carrier or an affected) or affected (could pass the condition on to puppies).
It doesn’t include the yearly heart scan.

The poodle:

• Von willebrands £48
• regressive retinal atrophy, two types (recommended KC tests) £48 and £78
• Macrothrombocytopenia £48
• poodle package which includes a couple of extra diseases I’ve not listed £156

you can be as sceptical as you like but given you don't know who the breeder is you don't know that but yes, I do have a full lineage for both the cavaliers going back about 7 generation and also for the poodle. I have all the health tests. There are lots of unethical breeders, this is not one of them. But feel free to not believe me because it's a poodle cross and obviously it's dodgy but that's not the case at all
I’m not against poodle crosses.
I am pro outcross and opposed to the Kennel Club.

But when the vast majority of breeders, in both show circles and working circles and hobby breeders providing for the pet market do not generally utilise the full range of health tests available then yes, I am very sceptical.
Particularly when you consider the current popularity of poodle mixes.

I very, very much doubt your breeder utilised the full range.

Another vote for Norfolk Terriers. They do say you can't just have one though - I now have two

[quote Sophoa]@Whitney168 I have a cavapoo from a reputable breeder. I have absolutely no question whatsoever that this breeder is entirely ethical and checks her dogs out properly.[/quote]
I would genuinely love to have the name of the breeder and would be very happy to wait for a puppy from a breeder who has done all the tests required.

If you feel happy to PM me with it, please do.

@MrsJunglelow

Laboklin has the following DNA tests for Cavaliers:

• muscular dystrophy £48
• Macrothrombocytopenia £48
• episodic falling (recommended KC test) £48
• dry eye and curly coat syndrome (recommended KC test) £48
• Degenerative myelopathy £66

That’s just DNA swabs telling you if they clear for the condition (can’t give it to pups) carrier (could if mated to another carrier or an affected) or affected (could pass the condition on to puppies).
It doesn’t include the yearly heart scan.

The poodle:

• Von willebrands £48
• regressive retinal atrophy, two types (recommended KC tests) £48 and £78
• Macrothrombocytopenia £48
• poodle package which includes a couple of extra diseases I’ve not listed £156

And vitally doesn't include MRI scan for CM/SM either.

Oh yes, I forgot that.
Full utilisation of everything currently available would be all of those DNA tests for both Cavalier and poodle plus a yearly heart scan and an MRI for the Cavalier parent.

Unfortunately my search (for a short list of entirely different breeds) when I was looking for a second dog showed that breeders (of all breeds and crosses) are by and large doing the absolute bare minimum with regards to health.
Which is incredibly sad.

My sister is a dog groomer and is a big dog fan, however she does love shih tzus, says they have lovely funny personalities

Whippet? Definitely low maintenance on the grooming front!

@Dozycuntlaters can I ask how much you paid for your border?

We are looking at the moment as I am finally ready to get a new pup (we lost our old girl last year). Unfortunately the breeder we got our first from no longer does it.

The lowest price we’ve seen is £2000!

The thing is, you don't need to do all the tests for each breed. If an illness is a simple recessive, and you do not plan to breed the puppy you buy, you don't to know if it might be carrying a copy of the PRA gene from one parent, because it would need two copies to develop the disease.

So for those DNA tests above, you only need the Macrothrombocytopenia - unless some of the poodle ones not listed also occur in CKCSs.

I don't know enough about the inheritance of mitral valve disease (the early-onset type of which plagues Cavs) to comment, and I'd want some reassurance that the Cav half of the mating wasn't diagnosed with SM either.

The thing is, you don't need to do all the tests for each breed. If an illness is a simple recessive, and you do not plan to breed the puppy you buy, you don't to know if it might be carrying a copy of the PRA gene from one parent, because it would need two copies to develop the disease
While you are correct, in a popular breed like a poodle I see no need to breed from carriers at all.

And in any case, short of neutering the puppies before sale there is nothing a breeder can do to 100% guarantee the new owner won’t breed.

So, if you have a litter of puppies some of which are carriers, you sell them believing them to be just pets and a couple of years down the line the owner decides it would be lovely to have a litter of puppies, ‘vet checks’ their poodle, mates their poodle which is a carrier to their friends vet checked poodle which is also a carrier you create a litter of puppies destined to go blind...

In a popular breed with a large gene pool I cannot see any reasonable reason for including a carrier.

So for those DNA tests above, you only need the Macrothrombocytopenia - unless some of the poodle ones not listed also occur in CKCSs
Dogs carrying, or worse affected by things like PRA or Von Willebrands have no place in a breeding programme imo

I have a rescue pomchi he is brilliant. Doesn't really bark only when letters come through the door. So well behaved. X