Feeling despondent about our dog

[Hyperfish101]

I’ve posted a few times but I feel I’m making no progress. Have an 18 mo rescue. Got him
In July. In some ways he’s settled but at the moment I feel there are so many issues to sort with him and I have lost my way.

Good things....toilet trained and sleeps well in his crate at night mostly.

Not so good......doesn’t walk well on lead, pulls, lunges at passing vans, barks at other dogs, is a total pain at our meal times and the worst thing is his biting. Well more like mouthing. He does for attention along with snapping when he’s excited or when he wants food. Bares his teeth and snaps. If I am cooking he will try and bully me for food...barking and occasionally growling.

We saw a trainer and also a behaviourist and some things work. It’s all treat focussed though. I can get a sit. I can get him in his crate but have to Chuck treats in to keep him there while we eat. Just constant treats though.,,,,how do I wean him off?
I ignore the biting and walk away but it doesn’t get better.

He’s well exercised. I play games with him. He loves a tug toy. I just feel I can’t get on top of the problem behaviours.

Any help much appreciated.

Hello,
Can you not exclude him from the room when you are eating or cooking? If not how about a frozen Kong to be given to him whilst he goes in his crate?
Lead/dog reactive can be difficult but if he is treat focused then can be helped a lot. I used to spot a dog (or something that would cause a reaction) then get the treat out and ask the dog to sit by my side so they can see and smell the treat. Wait for the dog to pass whilst still showing my dog I had the treat and then once the dog has passed them give the treat and walk on.
Is he getting enough exercise? Is he getting enough stimulus? Treat toys where they have to work out where the treat came from? Agility type exercises? Actual free running? Is he socialised with other dogs at all?

Don't worry about the treats. Our dog got loads and loads of them when he was still learning.
Make sure they are tiny, doubt our dog even tasted many of them as he just used to gulp them down. It's more the notion that they are getting rewarded.

I've never had a rescue but have had a couple of puppies and will saying training is a long process that needs to be constantly reinforced. Our dog is two now but still needs things like loose lead walking reinforced some of the time. So it's definitely a work in progress for a long time.

Hopefully someone will be along soon to give you specific advice.

When your dogs starts biting/begging, make him leave the room, shut the door and don't let him back in for a minute or two. Do it every time he is bad, it will take a couple of days but he'll learn to stop doing it.
You should always stop using the crate, some dogs like them, most don't. And the dogs that don't get destructive, hyperactive and anxious.

Thanks,

We are working on the lead reactivity as described. Dog actually likes his crate tbh. Spends a lot of time in there quite happily with the door open so will probably keep it. He does run in there when he sees us start to prepare food as he knows he will be fed treats.

Will remove him for the biting thing. The trainer said to substitute a toy but the behaviourist said don’t as this just rewards him... I get that.

I do instinctively feel aversive trainer is better and more humane but also feel a dog should know when it has done something wrong. So a move to another room or a sharp ‘no’ surely isn’ t a problem?

How is the dog meant to know what you are saying 'no' to?
For instance.. dog is jumping and biting you while on the living room rug. Is it no to jumping? Is it no to biting? Is it no to being in the living room? Sounds obvious to us, but is it to the dog? Not so much.

The bullying fix is simple.. prevent the behaviour by not giving access to you when prepping food.. stair gate at the kitchen door or shut in another room.. prevention is always the key because if he can't practise the unwanted behaviour it will reduce.

The reactivity training does work..and force free IS always better..aversives are not... aversives suppress it at best. If the dog is reacting.. you are too close to the trigger.. you need to be far enough away that he can take treats calmly... (mines reactive ..trust me been working on this a while and always will be)
Join the Reactive Dogs group on fb... fantastic resource.

And the treats... well I go to work because I get paid. I wouldn't otherwise. It's the same training a dog.. the treats are his pay for doing what you want. By all means get healthy ones (mine prefers cheese..not so healthy) but expecting him to learn without is not really reasonable :) He's also an adolescent and a rescue.. he's already had huge upheavals... give him time. July to October is NOTHING in terms of settling and retraining a rescue.

He'll get there :)

I meant to say non aversive. And I get the treat thing but I can’t see a time when I can ever reduce them. I see no improvement. Hence he despondency.

If I lock him out of kitchen he will bark and scratch at the door. What would you advise?

Will look at the FB group. Thanks.

I get the treat thing but I can’t see a time when I can ever reduce them

You're talking about reard schedules (in case you want to read up). The basics are:

• things that are rewarding every single time are learned quickly BUT when the rewards stop, the behaviour also extinguishes (goes away again) quickly
• things that are rewarding every now and again are learned slowly BUT the behaviour does not extinguish easily when the rewards slow down. This is the gambling effect - if you never know if the next time is going to be the one to earn the reward then it's always worth giving it one more go.

So the "ideal" is for new behaviours to be rewarded every single time to quickly establish learning but then moved onto slowly reducing rewards until the dog never quite knows for sure if a reward is coming or not.

e.g
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat missed
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat missed
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat missed
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat missed
"Sit" - dog sits - treat missed
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given
"Sit" - dog sits - treat missed
"Sit" - dog sits - treat missed
"Sit" - dog sits - treat missed
"Sit" - dog sits - treat given

You can also use secondary rewards. Primary rewards (like food) are things the dog finds rewarding instinctively. Secondary rewards are things the dog learns to find rewarding because he has good experiences with them.

S, if every time you give the dog a treat you first say "good dog" then the words "good dog" become rewarding because they are linked in the dog's mind with food coming. This is true, even when they are not followed with food any more.

So "good dog" becomes something you an use to reward a behaviour when you don't want to treat.

You have been advised on other threads to increase the time between the treats. Also really important to practice this when you are not cooking and can give it the attention it requires.

By just giving the treats and not increasing the time between the treats all you are doing is distracting the dog not teaching it that it gets rewarded for being on the mat/crate etc.

Re snapping and biting what do you do when this happens? Have you moved him to a room and given him a sharp no? Did it work?

It’s all treat focussed though how would you suggest training him without treats?

Equally do not have the dog in the room when you are cooking.

If you have a trainer get back to them - they should offer follow ups - you need more help to understand what is required.

Yes i have posted before. I am trying to increase time between treat. It is hard to keep track and I lose sight of where we are up to.

If dog has to go to another room when biting. I literally would have to drag him. Is this ok?

He goes voluntarily into crate when there is any sign of food. I treat him. I keep giving him treats randomly throughout the whole cooking then eating a meal. When we sit down to eat. He gets a stuffed Kong. This works 50% of the time. Otherwise he barks.

I will contact the trainer. She gave good advice but it is a lot to remember and I just get bogged down with it. The poor dog has so many issues and I don’t think I’m helping him 😞

I can totally understand you feeling bogged down. It is hard very hard but your trainer should be able to help you understand it. If not get another one!

Dogs always seem to be one step ahead of us sometimes. Also to reassure you dog trainers often go to other trainers as it is easier for someone outside of the situation to be abel to see a way forward.

Ask the trainer for control and management techniques for some of the behaviours. So that you can then concentrate on one thing at a time. It helps to break it down into more manageable steps.

I would not be dragging him to another room when he bits(as he will then begin to dart away from you and you will have another issue to deal with) What happens if you go out of the room. You bite, attention stops. (Annoying for you to have to do but usually makes the dogs think a bit) howeer not seeing the situation in rl this could not be the best advice. The trainer is the one who can help.

He goes voluntarily into crate when there is any sign of food. This is awesome and well done you for getting this sorted - if nothing else it shows he can be trained It just needs a tweak to perfect if for you.

Dont doubt yourself ever owner feels like this at times.

sorry for typos cold fingers stood in a cold field!

Thanks!!!! I’m glad I am getting something right.

Thanks all for your help. Really appreciate it

@Ladybird345

that worked for me too....sitting,showing the treat until dog had passed by. worked really well and i read that tip here on MN. Maybe you had said it on another thread...if it was you then thank you!

What breed is it? Can we see a pic of the culprit?
Why does he need to be crated for you to eat? Can’t you just put him in another room...

Mixes breed. No idea what! He just kind o ended up going in his crate. Too tricky to lock him out of kitchen as we are all open plan. He will stay I. There if I Chuck treats at him!

Lol hope he stops nipping, I agree with the ignoring bit and lots of exercise. I used kongs they were great.

i hope this will offer you some reassurance.

My dog had just turned four when she came to me, so more mature than yours. Walks were a nightmare of lunging at other dogs and hauling me to sniff manically at everything. Inside wasn't so much of a problem though. A lot of chewing inappropriate things, but between me learning to put everything away and her becoming less stressed that has resolved itself. However I do know that feeling of not knowing what to concentrate on, there was so much.

Treats work for her. They're not even treats, just some of her normal food ration. I decided that if treats worked, she'd have treats till the end of her days.

We're fifteen months on now and things are much easier. I still have to be on the alert for other dogs but walks are much less stressful and she's far more relaxed in the house too. My previous dogs have settled more quickly - this one has taken over a year. I still use food but less now.

Of course there was progress - and steps back - during the first year, but it's now that things seem to have really come right.

Your dog is very young and there's a lot to undo. Maybe a year seems a long time and in a year's time your dog will still be young. But other people comment often on how much progress my dog has made, which is encouraging. The first six months were so hard but I really feel now that it's been worth it.

Thanks so much! You give me hope.