Do you lecture/advise others if they're sound ignorant about puppy farms etc?

[PatienceVirtue]

Sorry a bit of a long title but I was talking (socially distanced, natch) to two mothers outside gates. One had just got a v sweet puppy - the 'breeder' had met her at a petrol station halfway between them (i.e. no seeing it with the mother) and the puppy was neither microchipped nor vaccinated.

The other wants to get a Cockapoo and mentioned a breeders she'd been recommended. I googled it as sounded dodgy and all the reviews said it was indeed a puppy farm.

Like any dog lover I am upset by puppy farm practices and I found myself whatsapping them the names of the rescue charity we used as well as links to the information about how to find an ethical breeder. My message came across as really self-righteous and a judgmental I'm sure. However, I just couldn't believe the levels of ignorance. I thought everybody knew about puppy farms and irresponsible breeders, especially at the moment. These are two highly educated women.

Anyway I'm sure these women now think I'm a judgy cow so I guess I'm just looking for reassurance that it's always right to speak out.

Lastly, do ethical cockerpoo/poochon breeders exist and how do you find them?

Lastly, do ethical cockerpoo/poochon breeders exist and how do you find them?

If they do, they have long wait lists and many would rather go to a less ethical breeder than wait.

poo crosses are pretty much a red flag for puppy farms.

I’d be inclined to report the motorway puppy. Can you even do that? The puppy was sold illegally if it wasn’t chipped- what’s the point of the law existing if it can’t be reported and investigated?

Yes that's what I thought about poo crosses, I just can't work out how you'd find one from a good breeder. I'm sure a few exist (though a minority) and I don't believe that all of the many schnoodles, maltipoos etc that I know come from terrible places. I just don't know how you'd be able to guarantee that they didn't.

I wonder whether it would be worth steering her towards the pure breeds that look similar. She definitely seemed to want one asap which is another issue. It would be like saying you wanted to have a baby tomorrow.

Yeah I was shocked about the lack of microchip. I don't know how I'd report given that I only know the owner. And I'm not defending the stupidity, but she is devoted to the dog and doing all the right things with training.

Wanting one asap sounds hugely worrying to me. I would be worried they haven't done relevant research (monthly costs, insurance, daycare if needed, dog walkers) and I'd be willing to bet puppies bought with that attitude will end up in rescue when it gets to the tricky adolescent phase.

It's always right to warn about puppy farms.

I do this too, just can't help myself.

I offered to help an acquaintance find a puppy but she couldn't wait and bought one in a shop (this was a few years ago) a couple of months later she couldn't cope & I was fostering the puppy.

I don’t think I lecture... though maybe I do, lol

I know I write much more formally than a talk - so it does sometimes read back as a lecture online, it’s not on purpose, it’s just that I’d be fairly incomprehensible if I tried to write as I speak (very strong accent, lots of non standard English vocabulary)

But in person - i would give information on puppy farming to someone looking for a puppy, yes and I’d more express concern about potential health issues resulting from puppy farming to someone who already had a puppy.., it’s IMO a bit pointless giving someone some of the info when they already have the dog...

Its interesting as unlikely to agree to meet stranger at the services to buy anything else without thinking it seems a bit dodgy.

I'm sure most people would research more fully on other purchases with similar cost & expect to have years, let alone a living being. The info on how to go about buying ethically isn't hard to find but it tends to be slower process and generally people don't want to wait.
If you give them the info, whether they choose to use is upto them. Poor breeding increases risk of health or behavioural issues so may lead to heartbreak & expense.

Its not always so clear cut though, there's loads breeders where a family have bred their bitch & pups raised with kids, cats etc seems like a perfect option. However the owner has used a convenient local stud (or own dog), has no clue about conformation, dogs family history or health testing so risking pups inheriting issues. They breed the bitch every season as its a nice money earner & the kids enjoy the cute puppies.

Interesting replies, thank you. It does feel like a landmine as even supposed reputable breeders have been exposed. It makes me feel even more blessed by my lovely rescue.

I do understand that not everyone wants a rescue and there is nothing wrong with wanting a puppy of a specific type.

There is, however, something wrong with wanting it quickly - being prepared to wait a year is nothing in the lifetime of a dog (and even less in human years). And yes @Scattyhattie, there's rarely a good reason to meet a stranger for a handover of goods in a service station. The woman who did this is an ex lawyer! This broke the law in two ways.

I'm not going to feel guilty about my lecturing/hectoring/advising. I clearly know more about dogs and they should be grateful for my wisdom...

I think you were right to say something although IMO to get people to actually listen and take action you need a more softly softly approach - although the motorway services thing sounds . I might have been tempted to tell a small white lie and tell the tale of a 'relative' who had a terrible experience buying from a puppy farm, ended up with sick puppy costing £££, asking them to be alert because its so easy to be taken in etc, rather than implying they are bad people for not doing their research even if that's the truth...

Like Scatty said, even though MN tends to present the issue as totally black and white, either you are a perfect breeder who does all health tests, only breeds for showing or working purposes, never for profit and only has one litter a decade with a 20 year waiting list, OR you are an evil puppy farmer, nothing in between (and any 'poo' or fashionable cross can be definition only ever be in the latter camp), in reality I do think there's a grey area. Not everyone wants or needs a show dog or working breed and they don't always make the best pets just because they are from a top show or gun-dog line or whatever (and when top show or competition producers sell puppies they'll only ever sell the worst in the litter anyway) - I do think it's not the absolute worst thing in the world if someone is specifically aiming to breed nice ordinary pet dogs, who genuinely has just a few litters from their healthy, average family pet, chooses the stud carefully, lovingly rears the pups at home in a family environment and yes, makes a few bob from doing it, some of the nicest family pets/mutts can be made that way although I take the point that if you aren't extensively health testing this may be more by luck than judgement and certainly the trend to cross already unhealthy breeds with even more unhealthy breeds purely for fashion (e.g. french bulldogs and pugs) is horrible.

Also of course it's so easy to be taken in by tall tales of 'accidental matings' or 'just one litter from a family pet' and actually be buying from a puppy farmer, so unless you are very very careful and prepared to wait a long time for the right puppy, you probably are more likely than not buying from a less than ideal home...so overall yes you were right to say something but sadly like others have said I expect it'll be in one ear out the other...

I think it really depends on what you want from your advice.

Lecturing in the wrong way can just turn people off and whilst you may feel good about it if your message is ignored because it comes across badly then what have you actually achieved.

You yourself have said 'My message came across as really self-righteous and a judgmental I'm sure' and 'I'm not going to feel guilty about my lecturing/hectoring/advising. I clearly know more about dogs and they should be grateful for my wisdom... '.

Wouldn't it be better to reign in the lecturing/judgement and hectoring to actually get into more of a two way discussion so they may actually listen and taken on any advice?

Hmm I know what you're saying @biteyshark and that's my fear. I suppose what I'm asking is whether it's automatically judgy/hectoring or whether stating the facts (and to be honest I did put a few self-deprecating ! in and apologies into the message). I may be being paranoid as my instinct is not to interfere and this went out of my comfort zone, but I was just so gobsmacked by the ignorance.

And yes @maxelly the service station pup was an 'accidental mating'.

And yes @maxelly I did think about mentioning Parvo

I think it's a very hard issue to broach. If someone is at the stage of looking for a puppy, you can go at it one way and suggest that they look for advice online, must make sure they see the dam with the litter etc etc, but if they've already got it your best bet is probably to take a very softly-softly approach, anyone can be fooled, puppy farmers can be so convincing, etc. Then if they want to wake up, they will.

I 100% agree with PP that there is a massive grey area of people who produce decent dogs in decent conditions, but are not breeding for show or trials. Some will use health tested studs, think about inbreeding levels and so on, get help and advice from someone with experience etc and IMHO that's a perfectly okay way to breed a litter: it's so much better for puppies to come from that sort of set-up than any type of commercial facility (and better for the parent dogs too).

What you don't want is people who slap any two dogs together and haven't a clue what they're doing but, if they love and care for their dogs and ask a few probing questions of their purchasers, even they are a better bet than anyone willing to sell a puppy to a stranger at a motorway service station.

It's really, really hard. A friend of mine bought a (very, very expensive) puppy that arrived so riddled with worms that it was genuinely touch or go whether it would live. She was outraged that the vet wanted to report the breeder - of course it wasn't a puppy farm, it was a lovely lady who only bred dogs according to the highest standards because she loved them so much - and she was so angry when I started to side with the vet that I just dropped it because it wasn't going to change her mind and I really thought we were going to seriously fall out for the first time in our 20 year friendship. My friend is educated, would say she's a passionate animal lover (her job is actually related to wildlife), but she has a weakness for designer things that extends to dogs (which I find a bit grim in itself) and so seems to be in complete denial about the reality of buying a fashionable breed and how likely it is that you're buying off a puppy farm unless you're really, genuinely careful.

I suppose covid has thrown a bit of a spanner in the works, especially during lockdown with travel restrictions. At one point breeders were allowed to deliver puppies as it was travelling for work but people weren't meant to collect. I took my puppy away un chipped because they weren't able to do so. She was vaccinated but only because the breeders (good friends of mine) are farmers and racehorse trainers well used to injecting animals so the vet gave them the vax to do themselves. To leave her there until things could be done properly in a rural home with no dc when we live in a busy city and have 2 would have been very detrimental to her socialisation. As poo crosses. Every other dog here seems to be one and is happy and healthy so I assume there is plenty. My sister got her cockapoo from a close friend who bred their family pet. They ended up with puppies available outside their waiting list as the bitch was scanned with 7 puppies but had 13!

funnily enough I had something similar last night, a dad I know through my kid's activity has fallen in love with our dog and was asking me about dogs in general and breeds and mentioned that his wife is a bit OCD (his words) about dog hairs and smell and could possibly consider a cockapoo or a cavachon (he didn't know the names but showed me pictures) totally unaware of anything to do with dogs/breeeders etc etc and yes I did go into a bit of a spiel about breeders and stuff, I do hope they don't get one....

I have a bit of an update. The woman I whatsapped with the links wrote a really nice message back. She was already having misgivings about the speed with which it seemed she could get a dog and was receptive to thoughts. Her daughter is an only child and I think being a bit 'daddy I want a pony' about it and they need the breathing space.

Given how difficult it is to find an ethical 'poo breeder, I wondered whether it isn't better to look into pedigrees (which are weirdly chapter too). What's a good alternative to a cockerpoo or cavapoo? Havanese, pure poodle, a schnauzer?

Cheaper not chapter, obv.

That's good! I'd agree it is easier to find a good pedigree breeder than a cross-breeder - you can look at things like KC registration/accreditation although this is no guarantee in itself of course. Plus only one lot of inherited health problem testing to consider rather than 2 as for cross breeds.

Depends really on why they wanted a 'poo' - if primarily the looks (no blame here, that is a key factor for many people), and they want a small manageable family friendly breed then one of the toy breeds is best, I would say a pure toy or mini poodle is probably their best bet (most 'poo' crosses look very similar to a pure poodle kept in a long/rough cut), and there are plenty of people breeding them. Or other slightly rarer similar breeds would be bichon frise, havanese, maltese, or shih tzu - all are fairly close in looks and size to a cavapoo or cavachon (again look at pics where they are kept in a short/natural cut - they all have the cute scruffy dog factor when not cut into silly show cuts for sure) and are nice low-ish energy family dogs. Schnauzers are nice but a little more tricky IMO, they can be barky/nippy as their ancestry is for hunting/guarding rather than as lapdogs. If they wanted something a bit larger and more high energy then perhaps a cocker spaniel, tibetan terrier, airedale or wheaten terrier (the latter if they specifically want the short curly coat)?