What am I doing wrong?? SLEEP!!

[Bunglemom]

So as you can tell from the time sleep is looking far from on the agenda with my 13 week old puppy!

He isn’t crated (don’t really want to as i think I’ve missed the time to try that) he is in a pen in the kitchen...
routine is as follows:

Last meal at 5.30pm (still fed 3 times a day)
Took for a walk at 6 til 6.30
Sometimes sleeps for an hour after (not always sometimes gets the zoomies) Or continued play
8pm flakes out on the living room carpet, 10.30 took for last potty outside then bed

He will sometimes wake up at 2am already will have done a poo in the pen so took out and will do nothing in the garden but then like tonight just will not settle (we do no eye contact no interaction in the night) we try lying next to him, everytime he gets out of bed putting him back...
we’ve tried putting a ticking clock under his bed, a heat pad, cuddly toys in or out

We’ve tried letting him cry but that just ends up in howling which wakes everyone up in the house

I’m seriously at my wits end and I have no idea what the hell I can do or try next to just make him sleep!

Everyone i speak to who has puppies my dogs age they are sleeping thought.. does my dog hate me that much

First off he’s walking too much for his age, the general rule of thumb is 5 mins per month, so he should only be having 15mins per walk up to twice a day. It can cause serious damage to their growth plates to walk them too much at this age.

Second, what breed is he?

@TeddyIsaHe
We’ve tried shorter walks but he just whines by the door to go back out and not happy to play in the garden
He’s a cocker spaniel

You’ll have to put up with the whining unfortunately, he can damage his hips and spine with excessive walking. It is a pain when they’re little and bonkers though.

I have a WCS, so know how bloody frustrating they can be.

In regards to night time toileting, can you set an alarm for around 1:30, and take him out? 13 week old puppies don’t generally go through the night without needing to go out at least once. Also, leave a nightlight on for him, he might be stressed in the dark.

Came to say exactly this. Pup should be getting 15 min walks twice a day.

My DH always wanted to walk more because the dog "was full of energy" luckily realised his mistake soon when his back legs weren't sturdy (all ok now, I won that fight)

It's not worth the long term health issues. Shorter walks and more "sit, down, stay, stand, leave" training in the house to mentally tire them. Also dinner in treat games/cardboard boxes will tire them out.

I agree with other POs regarding health issues. Additionally, too long walks will lead to over stimulation (remember all those times when you were too tired and not being able to sleep/calm/settle - this is similar). Also taking a dog for a walk 30 minutes after food is bad idea, minimum 1-1.5 hours of rest before and after a meal.

You need to break the habit of whining - if the dog knows that whining is going to get him/her things - they will use it. Ignore it or walk out of the room each time he starts whining at the door (provided you know he is not asking to go potty).

Pups will need to go potty at night at least once until they can hold through the night (mine was about 5 months when he could sleep through the night). Either you need to make sure you get up earlier than a pup to take him out and give a command of your choice - ''get busy'', ''go potty'', etc., either get puppy pads.

I have used crate - not to lock him in it, but to provide some sort of den (his safe space). You can put one in the pen and always leave the door open. Also like other poster said - a night light (my dog is over a year old now and I still leave a night lamp on) and TV.

And like another poster said - give training with treats (deduct the amount of treats from meals) and this will tire him out (I did 15 minutes in the morning and in the evening).

We didn't crate our pup. He used pads through the night and didn't make any noise when he woke so we didn't disturb him. He just started using them less and then when he was around 5 months old we took the pads away altogether and he went through the night.

You'll find that your pup will quickly learn to escape the pen. We puppy proofed the kitchen and he was quite happy in there. I'm not sure what age that was though.

I think 30mins of gentle walking is fine really. I thought the 5mins rule had been debunked.

@TeddyIsaHe

You’ll have to put up with the whining unfortunately, he can damage his hips and spine with excessive walking. It is a pain when they’re little and bonkers though.

I have a WCS, so know how bloody frustrating they can be.

In regards to night time toileting, can you set an alarm for around 1:30, and take him out? 13 week old puppies don’t generally go through the night without needing to go out at least once. Also, leave a nightlight on for him, he might be stressed in the dark.

Unless very recent research has been done there's actually no evidence to support the theory that exercise damages joints. It's been suggested that there may be a theoretical risk, but a few minutes extra of gentle exercise is unlikely to actually make any difference at all. Stating it will definitely affect his hips and spine is as far as I'm aware inaccurate - though I'd be interested to see any research that supports this?

@Bunglemom what if you don't take him out at 2am? Rather than disturbing him I'd be tempted to push through to the early morning and see if he can hold on you might find he sleeps through. The other option is to keep himnearer to you - he's very little to be alone for such long periods and needs reassurance. You can gradually transition him back to the kitchen pen, but he'll probably sleep better with company whilst still small.

@Veterinari Is it really not common knowledge? Even with giant breeds and long-backed dogs?

I’m just going on what my vet has told me, and I work my dogs, and have met plenty of working adults with early onset arthritis that their vets have put down to too much early exercise. Happy to be proven otherwise though!

Not sure how you ‘gently’ exercise a spaniel either

I would change the day time routine a bit.

Make the last meal of the day a gentle brain session. eg asking for basic sits ,this can be done by luring the treat to the dog into the sit position - m ost puppies do it instinctively. Also ask for a hand touch, so gently training and getting the puppy to work for his food. Put a bit of food on the floor and encorage him to search for it. 20 mins or so of this will tire him out more than your walk. Put treats onto a mat and get him to go to the mat to get the treats, calm quiet gentle training. Not mad enthusiastic praise in this session.

Take out to wee and poo on a lead to prevent this session turning into an outdoor play session. A gentle mooch around the garden is good.

I would be sleeping near him so that I can also touch him if he whimpers. Gun dogs are notorious for finding it hard when they leave the litter. The more confident he feels with you being near by the quicker this will be sorted and less likely to turn into a big issue.

I also would not wake him for a poo. If you are near him you will wake up then and if you are nearby he should settle again after wards.

@Speckledhen617
Thanks for your reply i thought the 5 min rule had gone too.. he literally only has a pootle round the street and mostly is stopping to sniff things anyway so not always walking for the full 30 mins!. im obviously messing it all up ☹

@Veterinari

I think having him near me is going to be another option im going to have to consider as its not me getting him up its him jumping up at the pen.

@LaughingDonkey
I said maybe we could try leaving the radio on as we have a fish tank with a light thats probably brighter then a lamp 😂

Carry on as you are. Our pup would tare around the garden like a thing possessed, I don't see how a sniffy walk is any different especially if some of it's on grass.

The night time stuff will fall into place, it just takes time. Good luck!

Have you tried giving him his evening meal earlier? He then might do final poo before bed and won't need to do one during the night.

[quote TeddyIsaHe]@Veterinari Is it really not common knowledge? Even with giant breeds and long-backed dogs?

I’m just going on what my vet has told me, and I work my dogs, and have met plenty of working adults with early onset arthritis that their vets have put down to too much early exercise. Happy to be proven otherwise though![/quote]
It's commonly repeated (and yes even by some vets). But that doesn't make it true. It's up there with 'spay at 6 months' as a baseless blanket rule, and as far as I'm aware doesn't have any evidence to support it.

Large breed and long backed dogs are more at risk from poor breeding/genetics and early neutering than from exercise. And even with exercise the risks are suggested to be those that may trigger acute trauma (flyball, chasing, stair use) not a half hour potter as a puppy.

At any rate the OP's cocker is neither so I won't derail., but I do think it's important not to make definitive statements that aren't supported by evidence. Opinion isn't fact.

@Bunglemom Puppies are hard work. I'm not sure how long you have had your pup but it does take a while to get into a routine. I've always stuck to the 5 minute rule with all my dogs and not over exercised. I did two short walks a day. Try some mental stimulation to tire your pup out. A few 5 to 10 minute bursts of basic training broke up throughout the day. I have working breeds and they were hyper as pups however they loved the training sessions. Also puppy classes are up and running now depending on where you live. Try to vary your walks too so they are different. Mine loved the beach still do.

What's his daily routine like? When does he get up and how many naps etc. does he have? Puppies need huge amounts of regular sleep during the day and being overtired will make their behaviour worse - they're a bit like toddlers in that respect 🤣

Mine wouldn't have slept all night alone at that age. Could you have him closer to you - on the landing or in the corner of your bedroom maybe? He might be scared to go to sleep in the pitch black on his own.