Getting an ex-breeding from a registered breeder? Thought or any experience please

[Freezingmyarseoff]

We’ve been thinking about getting a dog for a few years and now our youngest DC is 6, we feel it’s time to actually get one. We’d thought we would go down the rescue route rather than get a puppy. However , via friends, we’ve just found a potential opportunity to get an ex-breeding lab from a gun-dog trainer/breeder. I hadn’t heard of this route into dog ownership until now but a little bit of research seems to indicate it’s not that unusual but not that common either.

The deal is you get a bitch on loan until she’s had her final litter (fourth litter). We’d need to get her spayed after that. I’ve already spoken to the breeder that my friends got their lovely lab from and he has another bitch available in about 8 weeks time once her new puppies have been weaned.

For us we would get a ready trained dog, fully registered, all health checked & tested. She is used to living in kennels normally but lives in the house with her pups. Only needing returning for mating & final litter, it seems a bit too good to be true. What are the catches?
We would have to sign a contract, which reassures me somewhat but haven’t seen it yet.

The breeder is 5star licensed, whatever that means, and trains gun-dogs, it’s his business. I don’t think it’s a puppy farm but obviously he needs to make money from it, so it is a somewhat commercial operation. I think that’s the thing I’m most concerned about. Four litters sounds quite a lot for one bitch, although he waits at least one year in between each litter. I don’t know enough about dogs or breeding to know if that’s okay or too much for the dog.

My family had labs when I was a child but this would be our first dog so we feel quite conscious not to rush into this, and want to be responsible dog-owners.

We weren’t particularly looking for a Labrador just a good family dog but I do know how fabulous they are. We will be getting a new hoover if we get a lab though.
My question is Is this a responsible way of getting a dog? Has anyone heard of this? Got any experience? What should I be looking out for?
We’re going to visit next week to meet the breeder and see the dog before making any decisions.

I’d be very wary , you will be getting an older dog that is unhousetrained and has never lived in a family home with all the associated noises and activity . Normally people who offload ex breeding bitches want them to go to homes where there is another dog as they are not used to be an only dog . I would not recommend this to a novice dog owner .

Sounds like a terrible idea
You have no idea how this dog has been socialised and I wouldn’t want a dog from anyone who just wanted to get rid of one which had outlived it’s financial usefulness.
If I’m reading this right she’s not yours at first but she lives with you and then you return her to be bred from. Have you had a dog before? Do you know how hard it would be to settle a dog in, get to know them and they get to know you and then you have to hand them back for an unspecified period? She could die giving birth as well or be very ill and take ages to recover.
I wouldn’t even consider this

Mn... this is one where you have to decide what your own moral compass is when it comes to dogs.

I have no issues with dogs living in kennels, esp breeds like labs who are generally less human-needy than some other breeds, but I've never liked the idea of breeding bitches being boarded out (or whatever you want to call it) and then rehomed at the end of their breeding careers. But that's me, and provided the bitch is well cared for and has a fulfilling life I wouldn't get on my soapbox about it: I just don't like it, it's not how I'd handle a dog, though it's preferable to gruesome puppy farm conditions, and also better than commercial facilities where the bitches are bred 4 times with pedigree litters that can be tracked on the KC website, and a couple of other times with either unregistered pedigree litters or to produce trendy crosses, and then rehomed at 6 or 7 (and get to go into a house for the first time ever).

The fact that any dog you had from this breeder would be trained, and if he (or she) is producing working gun dogs will also have been trained for work and proven in the field, is somewhat reassuring: this bitch will have seen the outside world, been about the place in the back of a pick-up, and had some fun in her time. People don't usually buy a puppy as a working prospect if the dam and sire don't both work (though I have known it happen when the dam was not in work but the sire was a good one).

As for number of litters, it used to be that the KC would register (I think) 5 litters, but now they will only register 4. It's not great for the size of the gene pool for a bitch to have lots of litters (just as it's not great for a stud to be used eleventy-billion times), and people I know who breed take between 1 and 3 litters off their bitches. Four litters is IMHO not ideal, but also a long way from the end of the world if the bitch is fit and well, properly looked after and given a year off between each litter - that is sensible. I have a dog from a third litter, and the bitch recovered very well and very fast afterwards despite being at the top end of the breeding age-range.

Licensing used to mean that the breeder was a puppy farmer. Now anyone who breeds is supposed to be licensed and the stipulations are pretty exacting in terms of physical well-being.

The one question I would ask is whether the bitch has been health tested or not, especially whether she has been hip scored. Dodgy hips can be expensive or difficult to fix if they cause issues in early life, and predispose a dog to arthritis and disability in later life. If the breeder is has an all-bells-and-whistles licence, I think that mean that breeding stock will have been health tested, but in your shoes I'd check that. A total hip score of below 15 below (say 7/7) is okay, a score below 10 is good, a score of 0/0 is perfect.

Also bear in mind that this would be a working line lab (albeit and adult not a loony puppy or wild adolescent) so she'll be likely to have more energy and drive than a pet-bred lab of the same age. I know a fair few working-line labs who are great pets, but they require more of their owners than do the really placid pet/show ones. Still easier than working spaniels or HPRs though.

That was longer than planned - hope it helps you clarify your thoughts.

I have definitely heard of show breeders doing this but it’s not something I would entertain.
I would want any dog to be 100% mine, no co ownership, no conditions.
Until the bitch has had her fourth litter she’s isn’t properly yours.
I wouldn’t be comfortable with that.

Sounds risky. You have no idea how good this dog is with kids. I doubt it's ever walked on a lead. It won't be used to normal household noises, let alone all the smells and distractions outside that it would experience on a normal walk, motorbikes, plastic bags blowing around etc. It probably won't be toilet trained either. And you run the risk of the breeder not giving it back after it's final litter, plus of course the risks involved for the dog in having a litter. As a novice owner I wouldn't even entertain the idea.

I walk a dog that was an ex-breeding bitch. The owners have had her since June.

She's still not house trained, despite all the work that has been put in.
She had awful separation anxiety and now has to be crated with one of their other dogs whenever the owners go out or she'll become destructive and howl.
She empties her bladder when she's scared, no matter where she is.
She's terrified of other dogs and will bolt if one barks or comes too close to her. She was bullied in the kennels where she was kept.

However, she walks nicely on a lead and is great with people once she gets to know them. However, she's incredibly nervous originally and will shy away from anyone, though has never growled or snapped.

She's an absolute sweetheart but she is a LOT of work. There's no way I would want to have to manage her behaviour full-time. It's very difficult.

I doubt it's ever walked on a lead.
If this bitch has been trained as a gundog, she will walk well on a lead - and will probably heel off-lead as well. If she's been worked, she'll be used to litter blowing in the wind, traffic noise and God knows what else. Working gundogs are IME well-socialised and well-mannered (they need to be) though to be fair I haven't come across many/any from a really big outfit where they are all kennelled.

If she's brought indoors to whelp (which OP says she is), she will be house-trained, she will be used to the washing machine and the doorbell and all the rest. If she's been kennelled, she may well be used to being kennelled alone for at least part of the time (when far along in whelp, for example).

And re-reading the OP I see the dog's been health tested - I'd ask about the results. I'd also read the contract carefully to see what your rights would be if you took the dog, or whether it's just written to cover the breeder's arse.

As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't pass a dog along like this, but it's matter of your own personal views about how dogs should be treated. I know someone who had a dog who was a reject from a show kennel (bad hip score, could not be bred) and she made a wonderful pet.

Sorry Op but this just make my blood boil. The breeder is a cowboy.

Haing the dog on "loan" is an major issue. If anything is wrong with the pups guess who will be blamed - what happens is the dog is ill whilst it is on loan? what happens if the dog dies whilst on loan?

Who is responsible for the health of the bitch -can you really hand your loved dog back for the mating and the birth. Who will look after the dog when pregnant?

There are too many catches to list them all - walk away and start asking people where they got their labs from and look for genuine responsible breeders. This includes breeders who recognise the importance of the bitches environment to ensure emotionally healthly puppies not just puppies with an average hip score

Thank you for your thoughts, particularly grumpy very helpful.
I do agree about the moral compass of this and we will certainly give it a lot more thought. In the flip side, I don’t know what would happen if she wasn’t re-homed. Would it not be better for her to be welcomed into a loving family, taken for long walks and runs daily human companionship? Perhaps she would resume working again, at this stage I don’t know, simply because I haven’t asked

To answer a few questions based on what I know so far:
Hips have been tested, and elbow and eyes, I don’t know the scores but will be able to find out should we pursue this.

She has worked and been out on walks etc AFAIK. She hasn’t been solely kept in her kennel. Apparently she never soils her kennel, always does her business when taken out. But as to house trained, I don’t know.
I’m not concerned about her not returning to us after the last litter, that’s partly what the contract is for. But I take on board that there are always risks with pregnancy and births. I also know the breeder will not take a risk with any of his dogs should there be any potential problems as he has spayed other dogs earlier than originally planned for health reasons.

With regards to joining a family from a kennel and therefore not knowing how she would react, I take on board the concerns. My friends have not had any problems with theirs from the same breeder but of course each dog is different. They also have younger children than us and this was their first dog too.

Lots to think about, but thank you again for your thoughts and opinions.

Can I ask. Are u bringing her back when she is pregnant or does she stay with u when she is pregnant.

One. If she stays with you I will caution you on how much work goes into looking after new born puppies and up to eight weeks. I’m currently doing it now and it is a lot of work and a lot of washing.
Two. If she goes back then that’s unfair.

I’m normally open minded on how people get their dogs as there are always two sides to these things. But. I wouldn’t be doing this I’m afraid.

polly that’s how we found out about this dog, by asking friends

We’d have her while pregnant but return her to the breeder about 10 days before she’s due. And then once the puppies are weaned, she would then become ours.

I am fully aware how much work looking after a mum and puppies are, our childhood dog had several litters. They were gorgeous but pretty hard work by the end. No way would I consider it as a first time owner but in this scenario it’s not an option anyway.

That’s a lot of stress on the poor dog. Why wouldn’t they just keep her till she has the last set of puppies. She comes to u and back to them again? That’s not fair

But. If ur anything like me I would take her and make the rest of her life the best it can be and totally spoil her. But if u do know that it will be hard work.

I’m not sure i’d considered that, point taken

But your friends have not told you about a genuine caring breeder.

The fact that you are going to have the bitch whilst it is pregnant is not only a huge worry but shows the lack of concern by the breeder.

Ok so what do you know about development of puppies during pregnancy?

What do you know about how puppies develop at the crucial 4 weeks of gestation and what the owner needs to do during this period.

What do you know about the stress reaction to a pregnant bitch and the impact on their litter?

Are you aware of the impact of moving the bitch before whelping

I would strongly advise against this you may be lucky but the whole practice of loaning out dogs during breeding is really unpleasant. The poor bitch and also the poor owners who are being hoodwinked when they buy the puppies. These puppies will not have been breed by an experienced breeder but rented out to someone else during the critical prenatal development time.

Polly You make some very good points regarding the impact of moving the pregnant bitch. As I said already I hadn’t really considered that aspect of it, perhaps demonstrating the naivety of not being a dog owner at the moment. I’m glad I started this thread.

We’d have her while pregnant but return her to the breeder about 10 days before she’s due. And then once the puppies are weaned, she would then become ours.
That would be a nope from me. It would be more acceptable to me if she went back as her season started and then stayed right through until the puppies left. But farming her out to you while pregnant is NOT what an attentive breeder should do.

That bit of info turns this from a 'not what I'd necessarily do but I'm not totally anti' to a 'that breeder can get lost'.

If you do end up going for a labrador, you might want to consider if you want field/working line or show/pet line. They look different (the workers are leggier and rangier) and they behave differently (the workers are more energetic and more driven to go and do things). I have never known a lazy working-line lab but I have knew a show-line one who was laziest dog on earth: she couldn't be arsed to keep up with a bike, which was something our terrier could easily manage.

Grumpy I’m rapidly coming to the same conclusion. DH wants to view the dog & meet the breeder but now I’m not sure what would achieve other than pile on the guilt.

My friend did this. She took 2 ex breeding bitches. House trained. Beautifully natured lovely dogs. They are living a fab life in a lovely home and are loved. The breeeder suggested they took both as they weren’t used to being on their own.

I got a 3 year old boxer dog from a breeder after she had a litter about 16 years ago

She was a lovely dog and was very well behaved .
She also had lived in kennels but I never had any issues with her. Lovely dog that she was

There is a huge difference in taking on an exbreeding dog to taking on a loan of a bitch that is still breeding.

There’s no way I could return by dog for 10 weeks and then get it back again.

Traumatic for her and the family IMO.

I would happily rehome an ex breeding bitch, they deserve a good home as much as any dog however it would not be leaving again under any circumstances.

Sorry, I hadn't read the whole thread.

My gut feeling is, don't do it!
I think re homing an ex breeding birch is fine. But the dog should be spayed by the breeder before you get her, she should be 100% yours when she moves in... not on loan, where you have all the costs (food, house training & vet) and the breeder the benefits of a "last litter. Plus who says that you will be the end owner? If she is a trained working dog, she is worth something beyond the breeding. He really is a CF!!
The arrangement is only beneficial to the current owner, contract or not, he could always "change his mind and leave you without a dog.

I'd look at the Labrador rescues (team edward are good & foster home based) instead and they'll probably have more dogs needing homes in future as people lose jobs.

I'd want 100% ownership control for my dog , what if you feel another litter isn't in your dogs best interests & is a risk of complications that could effect her health or lose her. I'd worry that could get shafted with the vet bills if no puppies to sell on. Generally the cost of keeping a dog for a year would be more than its purchase price and an except for a few an older dog doesn't have that much market value .