Any vets out there?

[Rgy3250999]

I’m not looking for a free diagnosis and I know it is impossible to diagnose an animal online but I just need to run something past someone, if anyone has any knowledge of canine heart issues.

We were told that our golden retriever had atrial fibrillation a week ago. It came completely out of the blue at a routine appointment and you really wouldn’t have a clue. He’s 9 years old but still eating as normal, loves his walks and is as bouncy as anything.

Our vet initially prescribed Cardisure which we were given for a previous dog who had heart disease. However after a week, this hasn’t made any difference and we’ve basically been told to carry on with it but there’s nothing else that can be done.

Reading online, some sites suggest that larger breeds can suffer with atrial fibrillation as a primary issue and not also have heart disease. In these animals, advice seems to be to prescribe drugs that can regulate the heartbeat - it seems a Cardisure is not for this and is for dogs with heart disease. I can’t be sure by I don’t think he has heart disease. As I said, we’ve been through the situation with an ageing dog who had heart disease and it was very obvious something was wrong.

So, what would you do? Our vet has given us no hope of treating him and said he could keel over at any time. If we’re missing something and he could try something else, I’d give anything a shot. He has literally only just turned 9, he’s so happy and lively and is our absolute world.

I’m absolutely beside myself with worry tonight and would really appreciate any advice. I need to know we have done everything we could and haven’t just assumed the vet is right. I don’t want to look back and think there had been other options we haven’t explored!

Help, please!

Generally AF in dogs is secondary to primary heart disease. I don't know how much work up has been done on your dog, but if you want to know more, and it sounds like you do, you could (extremely politely! ) request a referral to a cardiologist who will have the capacity to assess the situation in more depth. Very best of luck.

Thanks villainous. I had read about it generally being secondary but he doesn’t have any signs of heart disease and the meds haven’t done anything to his heartbeat. I think a referral is an idea. I didn’t want to look like I’d been googling things and was questioning their judgement but I’m just worried that we’re not treating this with the right meds and missing a chance of prolonging his life. I’m desperate really.

Thank you for your input x

I’d second requesting a referral to a cardiologist. They will like want to ultrasound the heart and perform an ECG as a starting point. There are other drugs that can be used to help AF too which the cardiologist could discuss. Good luck.

Hi @Rgy3250999 👋🏻 Sorry to hear about your dog. How was the AF diagnosed? Do you know if they ran an ECG or did a heart scan?
Cardisure is not licensed for AF but I think it has been shown to be useful in some cases. If your dog does have underlying primary heart disease, then it may help.
You are perfectly within your rights to speak to another vet, either within the same practice, another practice as a second opinion, or request referral to a cardiologist. But do speak to your own vet thoroughly first to make sure they understand your concerns and expectations and have done everything they can for you.

I dont trust most vets after 30 years of dog ownership.
We recently had an issue so managed to find a vet who has a small amount of experience with our breed, but much more than the local vet where ours is the only one they have ever seen. It was worth the second opinion.
I always question the vet if they get shirty walk away, they should be able to re assure you and back up the diagnosis with facts.
How was it diagnosed?
If the dogs fine will the meds alter its life style?
Would the meds make it any happier?
If I could give you an exact accurate diagnosis would you be any better for knowing?
My point is the dogs clearly not bothered by it but its a worry for you, if you treat it or dont whats the difference to your family and the dog.

My dog is still absolutely fine but if you put a hand on his chest, you can feel that his heartbeat is erratic and a bit thumps at times.

To diagnose the atrial fibrillation, they just listened through their stethoscope but he hasn’t had any other tests. They’re a tiny village vet so I don’t even know if they could offer this.

I have taken the Cardisure to try for another month because I was scared that I might worsen his health by not giving it him. I have no idea if it is having any positive impact though or if it could actually make things worse if he doesn’t have the accompanying heart disease. I remember with my old dog, after a while on Cardisure, he had to have diuretics and I believe this can cause kidney issues. I don’t want him to end up with this because I’ve given him the tablets, if it wasn’t needed. I don’t know anything about the possible side effects if misdiagnosed though.

We have given him a bit longer on these tablets to see if it was making a difference but his heart is still erratic. We have now made another appointment to go back to the vet and discuss our options but it’s difficult when you can’t go in and speak face to face. They are having to do their consultation and then call us afterwards to discuss.

Part of me does wonder how he would have got on if we hadn’t had that visit and didn’t know about any of this. Is it possible for them to still live a long life with AF? It just feels like a ticking time bomb at the moment and we’re ending up wrapping him in cotton wool more than we would normally.

Hmmm, I would definitely speak to them and emphasise that you are interested in investigating this further rather than just trialling Cardisure.
AF is the most common form of an irregular heart beat but there are many other differentials so to diagnose it properly, it requires an ECG as minimum and ideally a heart scan too. Treatment is directed at the underlying heart condition if present, and the aims are 1) reduce the heart rate (as its often too fast) and 2) make the heart rate more regular. Cardisure works by reducing the effects of congestive heart failure by improving how efficiently the heart beats and dilating the vessels to reduce resistance of blood flow. There shouldn't be any negative effects on the kidneys with it and if there is underlying heart disease, it may well help that but it won't reduce the rate and it won't make it any more regular. Sounds like you need to push for more investigations to get a specific diagnosis and check for any underlying heart disease. At 9, your boy could have many more happy years ahead! Whereabouts in the country are you?

Sorry, I should say, I am actually a vet! 😊

Thank you. I’ve got another visit booked with the vet for next week so I will discuss this and ask for further investigations or a referral. I’m in the East Midlands, if you happened to know of any good vets or specialists around that area?

Thank you for the extra information - that’s really helpful x

Sorry, that's the wrong side of the country from me I'm afraid. Best of luck with your vets x

I’m also a vet. I’d say it would be worth suggesting to your vets to ask Vet Practice Support for help. They have vets who visit your own vet practice to scan and ecg. They have a few vets with cardiology experience and expert scanners and it is cheaper than traditional referral, usually maybe £500 as opposed to several thousands.

Good luck.