4 week old puppies separated from Mum play fighting really roughly

[Flowersupnorth]

I am currently hand rearing a litter of 8 labrador puppies. Very sadly at 2.5 weeks they had to be separated from their brilliant Mum on vets advise as she was very ill with erupted mastitis (horrific!).
They are now 4 weeks and after a shaky first well doing great and putting on weight well.
For the last few days after their last feed of the night they are play fighting but very roughly. There are often loud yelps. At the moment I am not physically intervening but clapping my hands and saying 'no' loudly which works... for a few seconds!
There are a few pups much larger than others but at the moment I am not seeing any more dominant or submissive than others- they seem to rotate roles. Which makes me think its just very rough play. Does anyone have any advice? Also any ideas why it happens just before their long night sleep?

@Pumpkintopf We had already been down for a pup from the litter and visited regularly once born as they live in our small village and I am a family friend. We were house sitting to look after Mum and Pup as owner has some sad family news and that was when the mastitis erupted. So I had to rush mum and all the pups to vets. They kept the mum in and I had the pups overnight. Once vet said to keep them well apart it seemed the best option. Unfortunately die to Covid my business can not operate fully until October at earliest so I have lots of time on my hands. Tiredness aside I have really enjoyed it, it has been a really special experience. Obviously wish it wasn't required for the dogs sakes but I will definitely remember this for a long time.

Which one are you keeping @Flowersupnorth, is it the little one you did the individual pic of earlier ?

I too would love to know which one you're keeping and hope it's the little one who licked your face ❤️

Ah I absolutely love her but sadly before all this happened my son choose one of the two boys. Here he is... ps. I am secretly hoping someone drops out and I get to keep 'yellow bum' she is a special pup!

I’m with your son, I’d always go for a boy - he looks lovely .

It’s just a part of puppy hood and learning through play.

They’re beyond adorable btw. Puppies are amazing Glad their poor mummy is feeling better bless her

This is really strange. Was your friend a proper breeder? If so has she not mentored you and advised you throughout?

I agree @MarisPippa. Really difficult.

Aside from the practical stuff, feeding, warmth, weaning, toilet cleaning puppies learn so much from mum in a very short period.

I am an accredited breeder and have never had this happen, touch wood. If it did I would have been reluctant to split completely and would have looked at a vest for mum alongside hand rearing which you may have done.

If that wasn't possible I would have wanted a safe stable bitch to teach them as much as possible in with them ASAP.

These puppies could be very difficult later on without these boundaries being set. Biting, rough play, pain boundaries bring the biggest challenges. They are certainly better as a large litter than one single that's for sure. Look at bite inhibition op. Very hard to teach if you are not a dog.

@MarisPippa @icedaisy The owner isn't a breeder. A dog lover but not someone who makes a living from breeding. They are land owners/farmers so familiar with animal husbandry. We have been following the vets advice. She got a second opinion prior to agreeing to separate them/the mother to have medication to stop her milk. The mother was very ill. The erupted mastitis left a huge cavity in her chest. When I saw her I thought she had been shot, I have never seen anything like it before. She was in hospital for a few days before well enough to go home and it was touch and go, the mastitis had spread throughout her chest. The wound wasn't stitched as that can make the infection harder to control so it has to be washed out several times a day. Very tricky and very sad.
The owner has been helping as much as possible and the vet has been calling with advice too. The option of a surrogate mother was not suggested at the time and that sounds like it would have been a good idea.
The vet was very clear that having the pups nearby would be too distressing for her and she really needed to rest and get better.

I have done some research and I am concerned about them not having their mum to keep them in line. I am looking into methods to teach bite inhibition. A lot seems to be for older pups as they are homed. Watching them tonight they do seem to be teaching each other quite well - the yelping when one goes too far etc. I am watching the body language of the pups and all is playful at the moment. We will also make sure the new owners are aware of the need to reinforce bite inhibition training when they leave at 8 weeks.

@Flowersupnorth if your speaking to vet ask about popping in a sensible bitch, even a few hours a day. Still great age and plenty time for that.

I can think of two who have had pups and would be great. Not to surrogate in mum sense but in boundary sense.

If vet agrees and you don't know of anything local dog clubs should be able to help.

@icedaisy - thanks that sounds really sensible. Does it have to be a bitch that has had pups previously?

@Flowersupnorth not necessarily but obviously they will walk straight in and know what's what. I'm thinking of tipsy one of mine she would sort out any litter. She has had pups though. A couple of our collies would be fine, others would not.

Need a stable, sensible dog just to show some boundaries and play techniques. I suppose you are thinking which dog would be good with any puppy, then multiple it by eight of them!

Some are super mothery some hate puppies.

I suppose here that's the joy of lots of dogs as our pups always have aunties and older sisters and brothers in and out.

[quote icedaisy]@Flowersupnorth not necessarily but obviously they will walk straight in and know what's what. I'm thinking of tipsy one of mine she would sort out any litter. She has had pups though. A couple of our collies would be fine, others would not.

Need a stable, sensible dog just to show some boundaries and play techniques. I suppose you are thinking which dog would be good with any puppy, then multiple it by eight of them!

Some are super mothery some hate puppies.

I suppose here that's the joy of lots of dogs as our pups always have aunties and older sisters and brothers in and out. [/quote]
Sounds like you and the OP need to get together for a dog exchange!

Ha! @steppemum - where do you live @icedaisy .

What about vaccinations- is it ok bringing an outside dog to the pups? I have two labs of my own who are being kept well away - one of which keeps having phantom pregnancies, but she is a bit flighty. I am sure there will be a calm maternal Mum around here, I will check with the vet. Thanks for the idea!

@Flowersupnorth Scotland can PM you if you are "up north".

I would see what vet says. See here ours are all vaccinated and in and out house anyway. So it would be impossible to differentiate between safe and unsafe areas.

My understanding is so long as the dog is vaccinated there is no problem,