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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Criteria to get a dog

62 replies

decisionsdecision · 19/07/2020 16:34

I've seen quite a few threads the last couple of weeks with OPs talking about their search for a dog or wanting to discuss dog ownership to be met with hostility on their threads. It makes me genuinely curious about what MN views as the criteria to own a dog?
So far it seems you can't get a mixed breed
You can't get a pedigree
You can't work
You can't have any other animals
You can't adopt
You can't get a puppy
You can't have a child
You can't live anywhere other than countryside with acres of land

This doesn't leave a lot to work with really so what is the suggestion from those that hold these views?

OP posts:
Carrotgirl87 · 19/07/2020 22:33

Actually read a post earlier that said that a large percentage of cockapoos are aggressive and snappy with children. And they ALWAYS come from a puppy farm. I had to take myself away from the post or I'd have got into (another) Mumsnet fight Blush

tabulahrasa · 20/07/2020 00:11

I’m pretty sure it’s different people saying all those things though... I mean ask a question about pretty much anything and you’ll get a load of different answers.

Shambolical1 · 20/07/2020 03:18

You're always going to get opinions at the extreme ends of the spectrum on a forum like this because most of the posters will either be here raving about or ranting about their experiences. It is the nature of the beast. In the real world outside are millions of people in the middle, doing pretty well or just muddling through who never post on a forum.

There will be posters who want to protect 'their' breed by warning people off them and just as many saying how wonderful is 'their' breed and to ignore the naysayers.

The 'hate for cockapoos' is not about the actual dog, it's about the cynical way most (not all - but most) are bred and sold, with no regard for the welfare of adult dogs or resulting puppies. A number of these pups have the most appalling trips to the marketplace. All the horror stories are true, sadly. Working at a training school I can also confirm that while many are delightful little bundles of fluff, there's a good few which are not easy at all, being prone to hyper (at times almost manic) and/or fearful behaviours.

The above also applies to labradoodles which have the added caveat of often turning out to be very large and boisterous. Even the guy who first deliberately made this cross to train as 'hypoallergenic' guide dogs wishes he hadn't done it. Full bred poodles didn't adapt to guiding work so to get a non-shedding but still capable guide dog he brought in the labrador blood. The experiment was a failure in that only one of the three pups born proved to be hypoallergenic and biddable. Although that one did work as a guide dog until retirement, the breeding was never repeated. Nobody wanted the other two pups initially, although 'failed' guide dogs are normally highly sought after, so a bit of clever marketing named the 'labradoodle' and here we are.

Of the various 'poos and oodles' the calmest and most sensible seem to be the cavapoos. They have similar appealing looks to the cockapoos without being as hyper; but then in all conscience, purebred cavaliers have dreadful health problems for which a simple crossbreeding does not guarantee resolution, so on welfare grounds I wouldn't want to recommend those, either...

Other problematical breeds from a risky or badly bred perspective are French bulldogs, bulldogs in general including the English, American, pocket, xl and xxl bullies, pugs, and chihuahuas (and their crosses). Especially the so-called 'rare' colours, which have usually been banned from KC registration on health grounds because of the genetic disorders which often come with the colour mutations. Some French bulldogs in particular seem to be showing poor temperament, being 'snappy' if not actually aggressive and for some reason many are very difficult to toilet train.

Which is not to say that there aren't many great family dogs amongst these breeds/crossbreeds. But it is much harder now than it used to be to find those good ones amongst all the poor souls being churned out and trucked all over Europe to the detriment of everyone involved except the people making the money out of them.

It's a scientifically proven fact that most dogs do not like being left alone at home all day; there have been studies involving the measuring of cortisol (the stress hormone) in the blood which showed that even dogs which appeared sanguine about being alone on the cameras filming them showed raised levels indicating stress response. As in people, some dogs cope better than others with stress. Many really suffer. Those 'funny' internet memes showing dogs next to demolished walls and broken doors or destroyed window blinds saying 'thank doG you're back!' are not funny for the dog. Many, many dogs end up dumped and in rescue because of separation anxiety and it's the main reason why rescues won't home to full time workers because they know it's highly likely that the dog will bounce right back, however much the adopters say they are willing to do the sometimes long and frustrating training necessary to rehabilitate the dog and that is a three-way lose-lose situation. Dogs can be accustomed to being left home alone for a few hours at a stretch, but not a typical city commute day or a twelve-hour shift plus travelling.

Dogs and children do not always get on. That's a bare fact which has a lot of ifs, buts and maybes dangling off it. If a rescue homes to a family with young children and there is an incident, they will have that incident on their conscience and will likely be castigated as they 'should have known the dog was unreliable/vicious/not good with children', even though once the dog has left the rescue they have no possible control over the dog or its treatment in the adopting household, however in-depth their home check. For safety most rescues therefore have a lower age limit for the children of adopting families. The oft quoted solution of 'getting a puppy so they can grow up together' can also be problematic as the puppy will grow and develop much faster than the child so unless there is close supervision and proper instruction of both puppy and child as to how to behave around each other, things can come unstuck.

Same applies to cats and other animals in the home. Some dogs will never settle with a cat or other pet in the house; many will, but you're not going to know which you'll get until you get it. Do you want to risk losing your resident pet or having to rehome your new dog?

All it comes down to is people trying to make others aware of the possible pitfalls and issues so that they don't take lightly something that could be a ten to twenty year commitment, encourage a vile (and illegal, in many cases) puppy trade or cause harm to their families and pets. People get very blunt on here because in many cases the same questions come up time and time again, often starting with 'I've done my research and...', a statement that often reveals more about what the poster doesn't understand than what they do.

Side note to ParanoidMarvin: I've just read your thread again and can't see where anybody is being hostile. When your thread was asking what training people did, stating strongly that you want to get it right, the breed of the puppy you're getting is a pretty valid point. The key factors for successful training are genetics, education and management and the first greatly dictates how you handle the other two.

Dreamersandwishers · 20/07/2020 07:33

@Sitdowncupoftea very happy to see a picture any day! I have 2 labs and they are never happier than when they’ve been in a bog 😝

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 20/07/2020 08:05

A solid and sensible post, Shambolical

I'd add pugs and any other brachycephalic breeds to the 'unhealthy' list: so many of them suffer major breathing issues that it's a big risk to get a puppy.

IME dogs and children can mix provided there is enough supervision, the children are taught to respect the dog, and the adults involved have the time to exercise and at least minimally train the dog. Any lack of commitment to the dog is where ownership issues often arise.

I can see, though, why some owners don't want to discuss breed. They either don't want to defend their choices (for whatever reason, boredom, guilt, irritation...) or don't want to out themselves. The latter is the reason I don't mention the breed I own: it's not that unusual, but I value my privacy.

decisionsdecision · 20/07/2020 09:09

@Shambolical1

while many are delightful little bundles of fluff, there's a good few which are not easy at all, being prone to hyper (at times almost manic) and/or fearful behaviours.
As is true of most dogs. All dogs have traits and lots have 'hyper' behaviours. This isn't specific to a cockapoo at all. As with all dogs some cockapoos will have undesirable traits but not all. E.g my friend had a Labrador who was aggressive when they went to a behaviourist they said that it isn't too uncommon to see labradors in this way.

Many, many dogs end up dumped and in rescue because of separation anxiety and it's the main reason why rescues won't home to full time workers because they know it's highly likely that the dog will bounce right back, however much the adopters say they are willing to do the sometimes long and frustrating training necessary to rehabilitate the dog and that is a three-way lose-lose situation.
Yet rescues also have a problem if you use doggy daycare. E.g when I was looking for my newest job I didn't work but knew that I would start looking about 5-6 months later. When questioned about what I'd be doing with said dog I replied that the workplace had an attached doggy daycare. They then immediately ruled me out as did a fair few other rescues. As my specific criteria was for a very dog friendly dog as we'd be socialising with dogs a lot this shouldn't have been a problem (they had confirmed they had 5 dogs which matched this criteria).

unless there is close supervision and proper instruction of both puppy and child as to how to behave around each other, things can come unstuck.
I think this in RL is very rarely a problem. It annoys lots of people that rescues won't rehome to families with young children - even puppies - this pushes people to buy a puppy. If you think of the thousands upon thousands of families that get a puppy lots are successful and have happy and healthy dynamics. It is unfair to presume that people won't put the time and effort into a puppy.

Do you want to risk losing your resident pet or having to rehome your new dog?
Again if you already have a dog/dogs in situ and are then told you can't rehome or shouldn't get a puppy because you have a cat is ridiculous. If rescues have cat tested and come out all ok there is no reason at all especially as cats are used to dogs.

People get very blunt on here because in many cases the same questions come up time and time again
If you are annoyed with frequencies of the posts simply do not comment! Yesterday alone a number of people were berated for daring to want to get a dog. In MN land you have to fit most if not all of that criteria and have owned dogs since the dawn of time and it is simply unfair and ridiculous to those OPs

OP posts:
Dreamersandwishers · 20/07/2020 09:20

Shambolical & Grumpy both make excellent points about the pitfalls of buying puppies/ dogs & health issue with specific breeds.
It’s particularly scary right now with puppies commanding huge prices and breeders churning them out to meet demand.

I think it is important when it comes to discussions on breed , that EVERY breed registered with the Kennel Club is a designer breed, and those of us who own one should not be snobbish about new types of dogs emerging. We should also acknowledge that those who bred to build up, for example the Labrador breed, made many mistakes as they did so, for example, culling chocolates, and that breeding for a valued characteristic will inevitably mean a shrinking of the gene pool.

I am lucky enough to have two lovely dogs, one KC registered with an impressive lineage, and one who was clearly just the results of a one night stand. They are both fabulous, fairly well mannered, extremely friendly to man & beast, both fit for purpose. Both were researched carefully before they came to me, which I think is the crucial part of selecting a dog.

Sitdowncupoftea · 20/07/2020 09:46

Personally i think there is a generalisation on here of certain breeds by those who have either had a bad experience with this type of dog and tar them all as a bad breed or alternatively have no experience and use Google as a source of information. In my opinion there is no such thing as a bad breed but a bad owner. I've owned various breeds over the years that have been mentioned on these forums that are nothing as described and have lived to a long age and been wonderful family pets. I have not posted until recent as I have noticed that there is some berating by these " know it alls". MN does recieve press on this subject. Its a wonder anyone posts for advice at times. However if you do read some of the responses you can see that some clearly have little experience with dogs apart from the one they own.
Ignore them is my advice , life is too short.
I've had some fantastic KC reg dogs bred from champion lines to ones with no paperwork and crossbreed all were great pets.

ViperBugloss · 20/07/2020 09:58

There are huge generalisations in The Doghouse about everything tbh. Training advice, feeding advice etc etc. I have a dog therefore I am an expert..... My dog can eat chappie so yours must be able to....

I dont believe dogs are made bad by their owners as suggested above. There is a lot of development issues that do arise in the first 10 weeks so if buying a puppy you do need to research that the breeder knows what they are doing or you could have a lifetime of behaviour and health issues. However you may also be lucky and get a bombproof dog.

Over the years you do see the "fad" dog being over breed just to make money and people do need to be wise to that.

I guess over time if you hang around in the doghouse you know which posters to swipe past.

Carrotgirl87 · 20/07/2020 10:02

Cockapoos are hyper. Should read PUPPIES are hyper.

Anyone who cares to go look at the 600 ish posts on the puppy survival thread will see that most of the people with problems of biting/hyper behaviour are actually Jack Russell/patterdale/terrier type dogs.

Unless the cockapoo owners are just too embarrassed to post about their rabid, aggressive, scared little monsters 🤷🏻‍♀️

okiedokieme · 20/07/2020 10:13

@june2007

I agree

Dogs vary a lot has do family set ups. I live in a city but have 1/4 acre garden and a massive park which is off lead 2 mins away, this is not the same as a terrace house with paved yard nowhere near a park. I worked pt , exh worked 5 mins away, it worked for us then, once wfh ends he will need a new plan as I've left

Shambolical1 · 20/07/2020 10:53

@decisionsdecisions

Nowhere do I say these behaviours are specific to cockapoos or applicable to all cockapoos. Many are super little dogs. But I'm looking at a bigger picture than just one or two personally known to me. Of course there are 'aggressive' labradors and problematical pups of all breeds and mixes but those pups from the currently mega-popular breeds and crosses mentioned in my post, have a higher probability of arriving with or developing issues of all kinds because of the awful ways many of them are bred and/or brought to market. It is these welfare issues that are concerning, particularly when they're changing hands for four-figure sums.

Rescues can't win whatever they do or say. Having owned rescue dogs for thirty years and been directly involved with rescue for the last fifteen, the rehoming 'rules' have been arrived at by bitter experience. Being turned down by a rescue organisation is not a personal slight but concern for the welfare of the dog the organisation is rehoming. Maybe the problem in your case is with the workplace itself and not you or your circumstances. Just as you can't judge a whole breed by one or two dogs, you can't judge all rescues by them declining to re-home to a particular individual.

Dogs and children really, really don't always get on 'in real life'! It's far from being a rare issue. Just scroll through this forum and you will find many, many threads from posters having difficulties, even with very young puppies and older kids. Of course many, many families have a lovely time, nobody says that isn't the case, but mixing kids and dogs of all ages needs care for the reasons explained in my post.

Some dogs are extremely cat (or other pet) friendly to any and all; some are friendly with 'their' cat but not with others they meet. Some can be taught ('cat trainable') but again once out of the rescue's hands the dog may behave completely differently. Do you have experience with high prey drive? Because if you don't and you have a cat, you probably don't want to. Duty of care to resident animals is part of the rescue remit, whatever the existing pet.

Forum flaming is a forum thing. If you come into a forum like the Doghouse and say something like:

"I've done my research and need a calm dog, not barky, good with kids (6m, 3y and 6y), my two cats, a rabbit and able to be left alone eight hours a day in term time. Small to medium size, not much shedding. He or she will be walked half an hour morning and evening (school run) with longer at weekends. There aren't any training clubs near me so must be easy to train. I've narrowed it down to between huskies, border collies, French bulldogs, cockapoos and my friend's got an alapaha blue blood bulldog with the most amazing eyes! DH is a bit uncertain about getting a dog but liked those ones in that film with Keanu Reeves. Mali-something. Because we're so busy and DH works away during the week we thought it would be best to get two pups from the same litter so there's someone to play with . What do you think?"

  1. You've NOT done ANY research and
  2. You're going to get flamed, because
  3. It's a forum on the internet and
  4. It is a DOG forum on the internet where this sort of post is sadly so common but
  5. Everybody knows best because of the one dog of that breed they've owned, or maybe knew someone who owned 'and it was absolutely lovely/evil/so well behaved/had to be shot by the police'.

Basically a post in an open forum will get comments. If comments you don't personally agree with aren't wanted or liked - and there WILL be those - or your mind/opinion is irrevocably made and final, why post in the first place?

RaspberryToupee · 20/07/2020 11:05

@Carrotgirl87 I didn’t do puppy survival threads but my cockapoo was the second most hyper in her puppy class, above and beyond the normal hyper puppy. The most hyper was a yellow lab boy. However, she was more hyper than any other cockapoo we’ve met (and we know a fair few) and than her litter mates (one was in her puppy class). She was also more stubborn than any other cockapoo we’ve ever met. That was her unique makeup, otherwise her litter mates would have been equally as hyper and stubborn, given the same genetic code.

Fear has never been a characteristic of our cockapoo. Some of the other cockapoos we know are a bit more timid than ours (not hard given how ‘outgoing’ she was) but not scared. I would say that I know fear to be a trait among cocker spaniels with half of the cocker spaniels I’ve known having fear issues with either humans, other dogs or both. Even when the owners in question have had them since a puppy.

We worked really hard with our cockapoo, again much harder than other cockapoo owners that we know. This isn’t a knock to the other owners, we needed to put the work in and they could get away with putting in less effort while having a better dog. She’s 3 now and she’s absolutely fantastic. Her hyper puppy days are gone, now she’s pretty lazy to be honest. Although if you put her in a situation where she can play, she will just play all day. She can still be stubborn, still far more stubborn than any other cockapoo. However, I would say she’s now a better cockapoo than the others we know but only because we worked so bloody hard. She was a difficult puppy and probably gave cockapoos a bad rep as a pup. Now, people see how brilliant she is and think a cockapoo is dead easy 🤦‍♀️You can get a difficult dog in any breed and it takes time to get them where they need to be.

Carrotgirl87 · 20/07/2020 11:52

Think I agree with what you're saying...

Dogs are like kids, they have their own personality traits and how you raise them has a massive impact. Although some are prone to specific traits there is little point trying to generalise as some people are willing to train and put effort in considerably more than others and will get different outcomes regardless of the breed.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 20/07/2020 12:37

There is reliable research to show that dogs who start their lives in puppy farms have, on average, more behavioural issues than ones that don't. Just one of several reasons to avoid puppy-farm puppies like the plague.

At the same time, genetics matter. Although not all dogs of a breed will express all the expected traits, don't buy a cocker spaniel from a field trialling sire and a working dam and expect a quiet life. Some lines in some breeds are known for weak temperaments. It isn't always the owner. Sometimes it's the breeder and sometimes it's the genes.

bluesapphirestars · 20/07/2020 12:45

I do agree shambolical but your example is exaggerated (which is fine it’s illustrating a point.)

Mostly it tends to be people who want a family pet. There are in fairness LOADS of breeds that tick this box. But someone says they are happy with any breed and they are flamed.

The greyhounds are almost always suggested by someone even when they say they need a small dog suitable for living with a cat! Grin

Carrotgirl87 · 20/07/2020 12:47

I'm sure one thing everyone agrees on is avoiding puppy farms like the plague.

I strongly feel that councils and regulatory bodies have a lot to answer for to the fact these things still exist and really should be regularly investigating and prosecuting. I'm sure that's fodder for another thread entirely though.

Point being I can't imagine anyone purposefully and knowingly using a puppy farm.

fivedogstofeed · 20/07/2020 13:13

Point being I can't imagine anyone purposefully and knowingly using a puppy farm

Maybe. But puppy farms wouldn't exist if there weren't people who didn't really care, and won't be told.

AvocadosBeforeMortgages · 20/07/2020 13:16

As someone who got a dog by accident (from an emigrating friend) in less than textbook circumstances, I tend to think that a lot of different scenarios can work, but you have to be willing to either work harder or throw money at the situation (e.g. doggy daycare)

I initially had a dog in a rented flat (with a no pets clause) with only a communal, insecure garden (only good for on-lead wee trips) in inner London, and in my mid-20s. I was working full time out of the house (miraculously, he coped - DFriend had been leaving him for up to 14 hours straight and he coped so I suppose my 10 hours was relatively short - not that I'd advocate it). He got 2-3 hours a day of walkies at one of the largest parks in London (800 acres), his first dose of obedience training that I'm aware of, slept on my bed, and had more toys than many children.

Imperfect, but we all survived - and given that he came to me with significant behavioural problems, the reality is that his options for alternative homes would have been very limited. I have it on good authority that the RSPCA would have put him down purely for behaviour reasons, aged ~14 months.

I've made lifestyle changes since then (some explicitly for his benefit, others with his benefit as a side effect). Certainly, having a private back garden makes life easier, but life can continue without one. Working from home nowadays means he has more company - but DDog routinely buggers off to the other end of the flat for hours at a time because he prefers his own company wants some peace and quiet, so there's a part of me that wonders how much he's bothered by my presence in the flat!

I'm not sure his lifestyle is still entirely textbook, but he's well cared for and happy. In many cases, the nuances of the situation are the issue - how sensible the small child is, finances available for dog walkers etc., time available in the evenings for walking, sourcing of a puppy, ability to separate incompatible pets, and to be blunt, willingness to make sacrifices for the wellbeing of the dog.

Carrotgirl87 · 20/07/2020 13:24

Puppy farms wouldn't exist if the authorities clamped down and investigated them properly.

A lot of the time anger is misdirected to - possibly naive - buyers rather than the real issue which is that they get away with it.

AvocadosBeforeMortgages · 20/07/2020 13:25

On the topic of dogs and children, I strongly suspect that the expectations of dogs have risen, and the expectations of children have fallen dramatically over the last 20 years or so.

When I was a child (90s), if you'd been told not to do something because the dog didn't like it (e.g. we had one dog that didn't like being picked up), and you ignored that and got bitten, it was your own fault and no sympathy would be received. If you ignored a growl and got bitten, it was your own fault and no sympathy would be received. I learned quickly to respect the family dogs.

Nowadays, (some / many) people seem to expect dogs to put up with absolutely anything and everything a child can throw at them. The phrase "let sleeping dogs lie" appears to have been forgotten in some cases.

I've never understood the idea that biting a child is the worst thing a dog can do (and that the dog should be put down), without any examination of the circumstances. If the child has been poking the dog in the eyes, following it around, tugging its tail and so on and the dog bites, is it any wonder? Either the child needs to be better trained, or the dog needs a better home...

fivedogstofeed · 20/07/2020 13:48

@Carrotgirl87 there's nothing illegal about keeping hundreds of dogs for breeding as long as they have basic standards of shelter, food and water and pay for their council licence.
Why anyone would buy a puppy from this kind of setting is what I don't understand.

Carrotgirl87 · 20/07/2020 13:56

@fivedogstofeed, I'm pretty sure that they don't show people around when they call them about their puppy for sale.

Or maybe they do, and I'm missing the point. Since it's been widely reported about inhumane conditions of ASOS factories and there are threads a day later with people saying how much they love the brand and how great it is.

Maybe people are just wankers and don't care 🤷🏻‍♀️

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 20/07/2020 14:11

I've a question as we're thinking of getting a dog later this year (been wanting one forever and it feels like our life may now be right to work round a pooch) ... with the working out which breed us best, we're going to look for a rescue so when we go to RSPCA or Dogs Trust for example and they have X dogs available of differing breeds, will they have the knowledge of breeds to match one to us once they've(quite rightly) grilled us to establish if we're right? Or should we research, have an ideal shortlist of breeds and see what the have and would be willing to let us have?

Also, is it cruel to put pooch in kennels (we'd do our homework to find a good one, regardless of £) twice a year for a week each time?

I hope my questions don't sound ignorant, I want to do this right (which is why we haven't done in until now) and I'm bracing myself that there's every chance we would be turned down.

Thanks 🐶

Sitdowncupoftea · 20/07/2020 14:22

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz
If you have an idea of a particular breed you want there are breed specific rescues out there.

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