Barking and 'nipping'

[lazzaroo]

So, we are in early days of having adopted a 9 month old Labrador. We felt so lucky to have found one that was good with kids etc and are really trying to get things off to a good start. I know it will take time but 2 things are causing us a bit of concern and I'd be grateful of any tips! They are sort of related.

Firstly, she still nips/bites when playing or during her mad half hour (which she's just finished!). We have 2 children and we are all getting worried about it as it can be quite unpredictable.

Linked to this is that we obviously need to be able to shut her in another room rather than leave her alone with the children. We'd also like the option to be able to put her in a separate room for short periods for all sorts of reasons (visitors, workmen etc), especially as she's very excited when meeting people. But, she barks. We give her a frozen Kong but as soon as she's finished it she barks and whines. This is pretty much the only time she barks.

She sleeps in a crate overnight and when we go out. The problem seems to be when she knows someone is the other side of the door or upstairs.

Any tips?!?

I've also wondered about the overtiredness. She didn't really settle this afternoon but not sure how to help her do that.

Have you tried a chew or frozen kong after a walk? For us, we walk him and then afterwards I give him something to chew on which seems to calm him down. Or, we do some training. This morning he had an hours run about off-lead and then 15 minutes "training" with a tennis ball going over "drop, give and take". Then he flopped on my feet and fell asleep!

She's just had her tea, so we'll see what tonight/tomorrow brings. This afternoon she had her new chew toy. I also did 10 mins training but it was after that she had her 'funny five minutes'. Trying to continue play I guess. Then she conked out.

I'm really hoping for a stress free hour now as my youngest really needs to see some positive interaction.

Things have continued much the same. I thought we had a break through today as I've been teaching the settle command and she got the hang of it quite quickly. Obvious needs more work but it was progress. Then for apparently no reason so starts with the nipping and jumping up.

I took her out and she had a wee and did a poo so I thought maybe that was aggravating her but it started again as soon as she got in. She had hold of my jumper and would not let go. My daughter had to scatter treats. She did it again later so I told my husband to spray her. I know that sounds horrible but I'm fed up feeling like she's being rewarded to rip holes in my clothes!

Anyway, she didn't like the spray. Immediately let go. She came to my side and licked my hand. She's asleep now.

I'm so confused. What the hell makes her do it? I feel sick at the prospect of her doing it to someone else but don't want to give up on her too easily. Any suggestions?

She is a nine month old dog in her second or third (?) home. She is going to behave like such and not like a steady old, mature dog. Teenage dogs are dickheads. They really are. It's why dogs are more likely to be rehomed at that age than at any other.

Grabbing your jumper - note not your arm so she knows she is not causing harm - is likely to be happening because it results in lots of attention. What would happen if she grabbed the jumper and you just stood there? Not saying or doing anything. I suspect she would grow bored and let go eventually. Repeat that often enough and she won't bother with the jumper.

Spraying her is wrong. It risks her escalating her behaviour if she thinks she will get sprayed again. That's one way to encourage real aggression in her. Shouting at her and smacking her are others.

I know short time periods can feel like an age when you're worried but you posted two days ago and got some good advice. It takes more then two days to change a dogs behaviour or see any real results from you changing her routine.

A one to one trainer, hopefully an APBT or IMDT member, sounds like a good idea to support you all because she honestly sounds like a normal teenage lab whose had an unsteady start - though I agree with previous post that this could have just as easily happened with a puppy when it got to this age. Hopefully having a trainer there in person can help develop ways for you to handle her while she matures.

What age is your eldest? I wouldn't leave them in a room alone with a new labrador that was nippy and a bit unpredictable. They are sizeable dogs.

We got our labrador pup when ds was 9 and he was never left alone with him in the same room until we were 100% confident that both of them knew how to behave. Took best part of a year as we waited to neuter him (the dog not ds)

I know spraying her is wrong and we haven't done it since. My arms are black and blue from where she doesn't let go and sometimes catches me as she jumps. I was tired from getting up to her in the night and feeling desperate. Also have terrible guilt for her doing this. It upsets the children to witness her doing it and obviously scares them if she tries it on them. We are not leaving her with them unsupervised at all, hence my initial double question about her barking when she's shut in a separate room. I don't expect miracles. I was just looking for reassurance that she's not aggressive and I've not made a terrible mistake.

She's not aggressive but to be honest you sound totally clueless about dogs and completely overwhelmed by fairly standard young dog behavior. What experience had you had with dogs before deciding to get a young rescue?

You have completely unrealistic expectations from training. Dogs don't learn commands in a few repetitions or in a few days, it takes months of training. Young dogs also require a lot of attention, it is like having a baby who takes up all your time. You also chose a large and energetic breed, a walk on lead around the block is not going to cut it. Has she had the chance to really run off lead for a decent amount of time? Start with that and then work on calming her at home. If she's quite with a Kong/chew, give her a second one and a third one if you need more time without her but overall it is unrealistic to expect a dog to stay in another room when members of the family are around. Dogs like company and want to be with you.

Turning your back when she jumps is good but you also have to reward her keeping all four feet on the ground and keep her mind exercises. Have you got a clicker and do you know how to use it? Click her for all four feet on the ground and throw the treat far away so she has to run and search to find it. Keep repeating, constantly rewarding the desirable behavior.

Aversives, like spraying with water, risk causing more problems especially in the hands of inexperienced handlers.

She sounds like a totally normal adolescent dog. Think about it - she's had three homes and she's not even one yet - she must be so confused and overwhelmed, then add teenage hormones into the mix and you're going to get a dog who jumps and mouths and wants your attention all the time.

I agree with a PP that you sound extremely overwhelmed - have you ever had a dog before? They're a lot of work and you've basically got this one in the middle of the hardest stage. There's a reason lots of young dogs end up in rescue centres - they are hard hard work and require a lot of persistence and effort.

I would have a look at getting a behaviourist in. Then you can make sure you're handling this properly and are rewarding the correct behaviour when necessary. But don't expect miracles - it took weeks for us to train ours out of jumping at everyone he meets and he still does it when he's super excited! It takes time.

Okay, was just seeking some support and reassurance not being told I'm clueless. Especially as we are doing most of what's been suggested so can't be doing that bad a job. Yes, willing to put work in and this isn't something we rushed. She can't go off lead yet as we need to work on recall but we've booked a secure field this afternoon for her to get a good run. We're also regularly walking with other dogs.

Yes, it's overwhelming. It's a massive change, which I expected. Just wanted a sounding board not to have doubts that I was going to mess it all up consolidated.
I've already admitted myself the spray was a bad idea and I won't repeat it.
Have grown up with dogs, all labradors and all rescue so I do have some knowledge.

Posters have confirmed all will be well in the end so I'll step away from this thread.

Thank you all.

It is overwhelming and I can imagine it is even harder if you had hopes of it being great fun for the chidren only to find out there's a long way to go until you get to that.

I'd be interested to hear how she was in her previous home? Only because that might be a good clue to her behaviour now. I'm guessing she either did this before and so has not had consistent or effective training before now to reduce it. Or she didn't and so there is something about your home that is triggering it - which is not to lay blame, just to state fact. That might help you in understanding her a bit better?

I would just say hang on until your trainer this week. I think having someone there in person to see what's going on and provide advice on how you can work on it will really help. There is only ever going to be so much the internet can provide because so much of training dogs requires minor tweaks to get the best out of the specific dog you have. And that requires actally seeing the dog.

What training methods have you used before? Are you familiar with positive reinforcement? Have you tried rewarding the behavior you want to reinforce?

The enclosed field is an excellent idea. You can also use a lunge line to give her more freedom when walking on lead but someone needs to show you how to let it out and collect it back in before you go out among other people.

p.s. (only because I just remembered it) the most boisterous lab I ever had dealing with was a 2 year old male who had been hit round the back of the head as 'training'.

Despite that he was super friendly but did not have a single clue how to be politely friendly and would jump all over you, nipping, pulling at clothing and pushing you over. When he took treats he did so with a hard snap, having never been tought anything else. He was a very big, strong dog - amost 40kg and so his friendly could feel pretty scary at times.

I walked him while he was in rescue - he almost took me down the lane when we unexpectantly came across some loose ducks - and he eventually went to a calm older, ex army guy who had the strength to hold him. 3 years later he got his gold good citizen award (www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/21396/gcdsgold.pdf).

OP, if you're still reading also pop along to the puppy support thread. Whether your puppy is 9 weeks old or 9 months, the puppy blues can still apply and it can help to know you are not the only person to get a dog and think 'WTF have I done?' Even when you've had dogs before/as a child, a new one can give you the wobbles.

Okay, was just seeking some support and reassurance not being told I'm clueless.

I don't think it's fair that a PP called you clueless - but it is overwhelming - exceptionally so. Growing up with dogs is very different from owning your own dog. I imagine your parents did the grunt work of training, classes, behavioural issues - kids get the fun part of pet ownership! There's thread after thread on here by people in your situation - it's so common, it's nothing to be ashamed of. All the research in the world won't prepare you for the reality of owning your own dog - they're a huge commitment and responsibility. It is scary but that's normal, it shouldn't mean you feel bad.

Adolescent dogs are hard and even though labradors have a reputation for being easy to train, they are big dogs and have a long puppyhood/adolescent phase. They're strong and mouthy and that means normal adolescent behaviour is multiplied tenfold. Controlling a teenage pug or chihuahua is much easier than holding back a lab or pointer!

Ours is a beagle and he had me in tears during his adolescence. A few hard mouthing episodes (it bloody hurts), a few episodes of running off after deer/rabbits/other dogs, jumping up, barking, lunging - it was horrible. Embarrassing, painful and we had a lot of moments where we just thought "what have we done". But work through it, stay consistent and you WILL get there, I promise.

GuffingDog once ran off into a corn field which had hares in it. He spent 30 mins running around in the corn after these bloody hares (to slow to catch any) and not coming back to me.

After swearing repeatedly, chasing him round and round and getting redder and redder in the face I sat down on the floor - in tears - to wait him out. Thank god we live somewhere where no one could see me.

Five mins later his curiosity got the better of him and he came to me to see what I was doing.

The moral of that story to me, when I reflected on it = you get nowhere fighting against the dog. You only make progress when you do something that makes the dog WANT to do what you want him to. In this case, sitting down made him WANT to come back to me to see what I was doing.

Little fucker. He's never been off lead around hares again. That'll learn him

GuffingDog once ran off into a corn field which had hares in it. He spent 30 mins running around in the corn after these bloody hares (to slow to catch any) and not coming back to me.

Hah, this reminds me of ours! He went off after a hare for an hour once - my FIL was walking him and went to find him. No luck so he went back to the car to drive around and the dog was that there waiting for him like "where have you been?!"

My lab is 18months old and I’ve just shut myself in the bedroom for a good cry because he’s so needy and overwhelming.

He’s impossible to tire out, and his latest thing is whining at the back door and then not going through it. Which in this weather is pretty fucking annoying. He growls at other dogs when we’re out and wants to play rough with them which has led to several altercations with people and their small yappers after I’ve said please don’t approach and they’ve gone ‘oh it’s fine, my dog is friendly’ and then got all up in my face when he growls at their dog. He is a big boy and it looks awful and scary when he’s paws down, hackles up and growling.

But when he’s lovely, he’s lovely. He adores us and is a doddle to train. When he’s being a git I send him to bed (as someone said earlier, ‘go to bed’ is a very important command to have), he’s wonderful off the lead and he gives the best cuddles.

In my experience by the time a dog turns two or so you forget all about the arsehole ness of a few months before. Roll on six months time!

Hee hee!

Another anecdote - just on the off chance they make the OP feel a bit better that all dogs are aresholes - when I was a child a family friend bred dogs and competed in obedience.

Her dogs were known throughout the whole village as being perfectly behaved.

My Dad took one out for a walk and was told under no circumstances to let him off lead around water - no matter how perfectly he was walking etc.

Both Dad and dog returned 2 hours later. Dog was grinning. Dad was soaking wet up to his armpits. He said nothing as he walking in except "here, have your bloody dog back"

Another 'moral' = even the best behaved dogs have their flaws. Oh, and always listen to the owner

Of course there are many anecdotes of dogs messing about, it's what dogs do and no one's dogs are perfect. It was me who called OP clueless because she did not seem to be aware that her dog's behavior is pretty typical of a young, large breed dog who comes from a rescue situation. And I didn't say it to be mean, I said it in exasperation at the state of the Doghouse. The OP seems quite surprised and quite overwhelmed by what is very typical young dog behavior which suggests that she really did not think about it before getting a dog. Having dogs in the household when you were a child means very little because very few children are responsible for those dogs. Getting a large, energetic breed, young rescue who has been in multiple homes already will be a challenge for anyone, and one would think that owners would consider that before they got the dog.

The exasperation may be understandable (at the general state of dog ownership, not specifically this OP), especially if you are involved in dog behaviour, rehabilitation, rescue or the like - as I suspect you might be. However, this dog's life hangs in a balance here. Will she settle into this family home and have a long and happy life, or be moved on again, perhaps for the fourth time? Each time making her a bit more unsettled.

There is a chance here to support this OP, at least until she can get real life training support, and make it just a little bit more likely this dog doesn't have to get used to another home.

Is how I see it, anyway.

If you give her a treat when she barks ( frozen kong ) you are rewarding her for barking

VanillaGodzilla I didn't exactly call her clueless and walk off. I gave her plenty of advice and asked her questions to gauze the level of her knowledge of dog training to give her more.

I know you said you’ve stepped away from the thread, but I’ll comment in case you’re still reading.

This really does all sound like perfectly normal puppy behaviour. Try to imagine you had a brand new, tiny, 9 week old puppy who was displaying this behaviour. Would you be as concerned? I know your pup is older and bigger, and that makes it seem a bit scary and inappropriate/naughty, but it’s highly likely she didn’t get anywhere close to the correct training and socialisation as a young pup. So now you have an adolescent pup who is dealing with all that the teenage years bring, without having had those important boundaries set early on. Adolescent dogs are a pissing nightmare at the beat of times, so it will be difficult for a while.

A few reassurances from a fairly experienced dog owner;

The growling when pulling at your sleeve is almost certainly normal behaviour. When pups play, they’re acting on instinct too. It’s not an aggressive growl, I always think of it like an excited toddler squealing.

The jumping up and nipping also sounds completely normal and is something she will grow out of. I know you’ve already said you won’t, but spraying isn’t a good idea, no matter how effective it was.

Your kids being wary or scared of the dog - explain to them that she’s just excited, confused and hasn’t been taught the rules yet. Then try to keep them separate for a while whilst you work on the behaviour. Yes it’s disappointing to kids who were excited to get a dog, but as you said, they’ve already waited a long time for this dog, a few more weeks/months whilst you train her won’t hurt (as disappointing as it may be), and will be so worth it when they have a polite, well behaved dog to pet and play with. If you can, try to put your kids’ disappointment to the back of your mind and focus on getting pup following basic commands and rules. Believe me, I know how hard this is as I’ve been there, a long time ago we had to do the very same thing with a much longed for rescue and it upset me greatly to see my dd’s disappointment. She got over it and it was all worth it, they were best friends for that dog's whole life.

It will get better. Try to stop overthinking everything and assuming everything is a sign of an aggressive dog. I’m almost certain from what you’ve written that that is not the case. With the probable lack of training and socialisation as a very young pup, you’ve essentially got yourself a toddler mixed with a teen. It will pass, stick to positive training methods, be consistent, and you’ll come out the other side with a lovely dog, wondering what on earth you were so worried about.