To breed or not?

[Labmom]

We have the most gorgeous black lab.... she's 2 years old and can't decide whether to breed from her or not.
She is pedigree and we have her pedigree history.
She is the most wonderful family dog, obedient, friendly, doesn't bark, great with kids and other animals.
Can you tell me the benefits? Disadvantages? Amount of work and costs involved.
We know we need to get her hip scored etc so aware of those costs.
Thanks

Could you afford it if you had to raise 12 puppies to 8 weeks? Could you find 12 loving and suitable homes when a lot of people wouldn't consider buying a puppy from you?
Could you afford it if you ended up with only 1 or 2 pups or zero if it all went wrong?

What breed did you want to buy Whitney168 and you couldn't find a breeder for it? Assuming that, as a responsible owner, you are happy to be on a waiting list until the bitch comes into season, takes, delivers a litter and they are ready to go to their new home, so 3-12 months?

You are preaching to the choir here, Booboostwo. I waited a long time and drove across Europe (twice for each pup, once to view and make sure I was happy, then later to collect) for my last two dogs from selected breeders.

However, the list of Vulnerable Native Breeds shows c.30 breeds that are in serious decline, and a further 9 that are in danger. Obviously some of these are because they don't easily fit in to modern day life - e.g. the Otterhound, Bloodhound, Mastiff - but many of the breeds make lovely pets which have fallen out of fashion for the heavily marketed Pugs, Frenchies, Poodle crosses etc.

If only M&S would put something like the Norwich Terrier or Lakeland Terrier across all their homewares, eh, instead of the marketable but fundamentally problematic brachycephalic breeds?!

And yes, there are often people who decide they want a breed, put some effort in to finding one but aren't prepared to wait that year or so for their puppy, or travel the distance that might be required to get it, so buy a local puppy of an entirely different breed or cross without a great deal of attention to how it's bred.

If DH wants to, is he going to take 8 +weeks off work to be round the clock attending to bitch and pups and then vet potential new homes?

Or will that all fall to you

The only valid reason for breeding (especially a breed that is 10 a penny like a lab) is to add something to the breed to make it better. Being a pretty and friendly dog is not one of those reasons. Neither is being KC registered.

Does she excel in the show ring, at obedience or working trials? Does she have a family history of champions in any of these areas?

Does she have exceptional hip and elbow scores? Will you take the time to find a stud who complements her faults and vice versa? Will you carry out the other recommended health tests for the breed?

Can you find and vet homes for up to 12 potential puppies? (Hint: all those friends and family who say they'd love a puppy will soon change their mind when it becomes reality)

Can you raise a litter of up to 12 for 8 weeks (assuming you already have homes lined up). In addition to general feeding, toilet training, microchipping, vaccines etc. do you have enough time and knowledge to give them a really good start to their socialisation?

Do you have £2500-£3000 in the bank for an emergency C-section in the middle of the night?

Can you offer a home for life for all the 12 potential puppies, should it not work out at any stage with the new owners? This includes as adult dogs.

Are you prepared to risk the temperament, health and potentially the life of your dog to have a litter of puppies?

If you can honestly answer "yes" to all of the above, then yes, consider breeding. If not, get her spayed and enjoy her just as she is

I knew I was kicking a hornet's nest, but there are several issues that bother me.

First off, not everyone who buys a puppy from a puppy mill is an idiot. Many people who do so are uneducated about how to spot the trade. Others are simply duped - I watched a documentary a while ago where a miller exported from Ireland to England, and then sold the puppies from a house which was rented for the purpose as a front. Buyers thought they were getting a puppy which had been born in the house, had grown up round family life and so on.

Secondly, if we only ever breed dogs that are exceptional examples of their breed, rather than perfectly decent ones, we will narrow the gene pools of breeds insanely, which will bring a whole host of problems along with it: rates of genetic disease are already high in some breeds, and new diseases continue to pop up. All it takes is one popular champion sire to seed just about every line in a breed with the grim recessive disease that no one knows he carries, and bingo, it's almost impossible to find a dog that isn't descended from him and doesn't risk carrying the gene. If people had been sensible, on the other hand, and only used that dog a handful of times, the problem wouldn't have become so prevalent. In addition to that, high rates of inbreeding predispose dogs to all sorts of health problems, smaller litters and shorter lives.

The reality of dog ownership in the UK is that a lot of dogs still come from people who breed their pet (or pet/working) bitch once or twice. I know a lot of dogs like this. They are good dogs, in good homes.

What is needed is continuing education on how to buy dogs well. Even then, there are loads of homes that good breeders would not consider selling to, making a ready market for the poor breeders, so we need effective legislation and prosecution for them, which is sadly lacking at the moment.
I agree 100% with this.

Don't.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman given the wealth of information out there, the people who still buy from puppy farmers are either idiots or irresponsibly impulsive idiots.

No one has suggested that a decent breeder should ignore considerations relating to genetic diversity.

In any case, the argument is not theoretical. Look at countries with very low numbers of professional breeders and many pet owners who let their dogs have one or two litters, like a Greece, and tell me, does it seem to be working?!

She should be hip and elbow scored and only bred from if she has negative EBV’s
Eye tested
Several thousand pounds available for veterinary costs in addition to health testing - hormone tests, scans and potential surgical costs
A reputable stud identified
Puppy vet costs including vaccinating and chipping
Space and resources - whelping box, food etc
Time and labour costs including developing an appropriate puppy socialisation plan advertising, vetting new owners and supporting them
Emotional and mental preparation in case things go wrong - Caesarian, puppy deaths, maternal death etc

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman given the wealth of information out there, the people who still buy from puppy farmers are either idiots or irresponsibly impulsive idiots.
You didn't see the bit about being duped, then?

No one has suggested that a decent breeder should ignore considerations relating to genetic diversity.
But if only a tiny minority of all dogs bred are bred themselves, you will screw up genetically. This is especially true of stud dogs, who can be used dozens and dozens of times.

In any case, the argument is not theoretical. Look at countries with very low numbers of professional breeders and many pet owners who let their dogs have one or two litters, like a Greece, and tell me, does it seem to be working?!
I said right at the start that I wasn't suggesting that everyone should just stick two pets together...
What I am suggesting is that pet owners who are prepared to put in the effort and money to learn how, health test, find a good stud etc etc should not automatically be told 'no, don't, stupid idea.' A ridiculous proportion of puppies sold in the UK come from puppy farms (it's hard to find out what proportion, but given that the KC says that about 40% of people who bought a puppy didn't see it with its dam, it's high). That's where we should be directing our fire.

I have a rare breed puppy.
Before we decided on her breed we spent a long time researching, talking to the very few breeders of her breed club and went on a long waiting list, having been given a thorough examination by the breeder we chose.
We chose someone who was only breeding their bitch once, through a very carefully selected stud and via the breed club. Before our breeder mated her lovely girl she had to have extensive testing done for all the usual and less usual potential problems, and the stud was selected to give the lowest coefficient possible.
4 gorgeous pups were born with not much drama. But then Mum became ill hours later... turned out she had a 5th never alive, unformed pup still inside.. emergency op and poorly Mum meant hand feeding for a few days. Mum recovered and was brilliant, but by 7 weeks of age the feeding had started a mammary tumour, which needed another op and she was also spayed as soon as she was well enough. Huge costs, and terrible worry for the lovely breeder.
They are wealthy and had the time, to be with the pups 24/7, the money to cover the cost of whelping, raising, feeding , vaccinating, socialising the puppies and unfortunately two ops that they weren't anticipating.

The puppies are all healthy, and ours is everything we could have hoped for, but our contract is clear... if for any reason we had to rehome our dog, the breeder would have her back. (I'd rather rehome my dh or kids !) That's a big commitment for a breeder!

My breeder said that if I really wanted to breed from my girl it has to be agreed by her (in the contract) and via the breed club after all the testing. I have several friends who say they would want a puppy. Nope nope nope. My girl will be spayed after she has had a few seasons and is mature.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman so the same people who cannot manage to read up and identify a pupoy farm duping them will instead manage to learn about breeding and help increase the numbers of dogs which are desperately needed in the Uk?

For anyone else reading a decent breeder should take genetic coefficients into account and not use a stud dog that has been used too often. Decent breeders know the lines in their breed, how they influence the bitch and the kinds of puppies they tend to produce.

The thing is if you want a pet dog the two most important things you want are good health and good temperament, which you are arguably as likely to get with almost any two mature unrelated dogs of good health and temperament bred by a caring owner, even someone who does it as a once off so long as they are prepared to put the work in and call the vet if necessary.
This is all I wanted when we first looked for a dog and they seemed to be as rare as hens teeth. Granted if you want to show or work the dog you would have to be a bit more selective and pay a bit more, but I would guess most pet owners don't.
The biggest problem, I think, with this approach is trust. There is little regulation of non pedigree dogs, so you would have to take the breeders word for their health status. Also if you are buying from a complete stranger (personally I knew few people with dogs, let alone who were breeding) you have to use your own judgement as to whether they are genuine or a front for a puppy farm.

@Booboostwo, what are you on about? Do you actually read what I write?

Don't do it.

I agree with everything grumpy wrote, 100%

Pretty much all of the most popular breeds are crippled with a huge list of inherited health and inherited temperament issues.

Serious resource guarding golden retrievers and insanely neurotic and nervous GSDs as just two examples.

A large reason for that is the excessive use of one or two studs.

Puppy farmers and one off amateur breeders breeding from two much loved well cared for and healthy family dogs are just not comparable at all and it really angers me seeing them referred to as puppy farmers when they are nothing of the sort.

“A large reason for that is the excessive use of one or two studs.”

Coupled with people breeding who don’t know to avoid those lines....because they don’t know enough about the breed or the pedigrees.

frostedviolets who is the neurotic and nervous stud dog who made current GSDs neurotic and nervous? What lines would you breed in the GSD to avoid degenerative myelopathy? What would amateur breeders do to avoid hip dysplasia that professional breeders are not already doing in the GSD?

who is the neurotic and nervous stud dog who made current GSDs neurotic and nervous? What lines would you breed in the GSD to avoid degenerative myelopathy? What would amateur breeders do to avoid hip dysplasia that professional breeders are not already doing in the GSD?

I am not a GSD breeder, or even a GSD owner so obviously don't have intimate knowledge of lines etc 🙄

But frankly, you don't have to be a die hard GSD fan to notice the decline in that breed.

Look at all the threads on Mumsnet alone asking about GSDs and posters frequently say 'neurotic' 'nervous' 'hyperactive'.
The original GSD was supposed to be the 'do it all dog' with a very stable temperament.
So clearly something has gone very very wrong hasn't it?

I have met quite a few GSDs, I could count on my hand the number that appeared to be solid, stable animals...

In fact, there is a KC registered 'professional' GSD show breeder living very close to me.
Ive met her top bitch who has been placed highly in many shows.
She is an absolute disgrace, a complete caricature of a dog.

Hip dysplasia is largely environmental so a lot of responsibility is on the new owner not to allow the pup to jump/run up and down stairs/overexercise/get fat.

But perhaps one of the biggest things 'professional' breeders could do would be go back to the original format and stop breeding dogs with laughably sloped backs like the top bitch I mebtioned?!
Oh but those normal looking dogs don't get very far in the show ring so they.

I assume by 'professional' you are referring to kennel club breeders whose core aim is ribbons and medals rather than working dog breeders?

The KC is doing very very little to improve health in purebred dogs and I put a lot of blame on the KC for using a small number of top winning studs excessively/rewarding exaggerated features/ignoring obvious health and/or temperament problems in favour of 'good' confirmation.

Amateur home breeders and working breeders all the way for me thanks.

No, never. There are already way too many dogs in the world and not enough good homes for them.

Agree with @frostedviolets on the points regarding the show bred GSD (and others). Anecdotally when I was young my cousins family gsd was totally bomb proof, as kid proof as a dog can be, lovely lovely temperament. It's not a breed I would consider now, any I've met all seem like they're high on Meth.
One of the reasons we went with a working home bred pup, who bred their lovely 5 year old bitch who they bred from their previous bitch with another great working dog from the family. We know the family though and I wouldnt generally go with a home bred pup unless I could guarantee they were genuine.
But then you're talking to the woman who would happy have a non designer cross breed/min from an accidental match for example as long as the health and temperament of the pets were good.

As someone who has previously bred litters, there is ALOT of things to consider.

• Is your bitch health checked and hips and elbows scored as would the stud have to be.
• Are you prepared emotionally and financially and to possibly loose your bitch due to complications, experience to hand rear puppies and/or loose the whole litter and still pay the vet bill that would be hefty to say the least.
• Be able to take a puppy back if the new owners circumstances changed within a few days/weeks /months/years. *Pay for all micro chipping (which is now a legal requirement) vet checks, worming, food and everything a litter of puppies needs. Barring in mind labs can have large litters
• Have the experience and knowledge to safely whelp the litter. Know when the bitch needs help or medical intervention during after labour. They can get eclampsia, mastitis, retained placenta same as us. Plus getting puppies breathing, tying cords, any intervention new born puppies needs. Gasping, fading puppy syndrome, so on and so on. The room for them, a 10 strong litter of 8 week old labs are like tornadoes and will destroy your house. Plus once weaned, the stench and amount of shit is staggering*.

Thats only a few things off the top of my head. It is hard. I had a bitch decide she didnt like one puppy and punched a hole in the top of his nose. She had to be removed from the litter, i had to wean them early and he developed epilepsy at 8 weeks old. I then had to take responsibility for him and be prepared to keep him for the rest of his life. He unfortunately had to be put down but there was still a very large vet bill.

Think over it very carefully. Theres too many people that think its as easy as just letting two dogs shag and you leave the bitch too it, and you get a wad of cash at the end of it (not suggesting you are one of those people though obviously!)

Just adding...
My Dm had a lovely black lab, (home breed by relatives who were farmers) who escaped when on heat and mated with a neighbouring farmers black lab.
All ok as my Dm was an experienced animal owner and grow up on a farm so very experienced with birthing animals etc.
A couple of days before lab was due to give birth there was a huge family emergency and my Mum has to leave my Ddad in charge.
Lab almost died, ending up having a c-section and 3 puppies died. 2 puppies survived. 1 went to sires owner, 1 we kept as we couldn't bare the idea of selling it after the heart-break of the birth.
Both mother and daughter lab died at aged 10 from cancer (fairly young for a lab).
Mother labs personality was completely changed after becoming a mother. We don't know if it was the trauma of the birth or the raising of the pups, or that we kept a puppy which changed her...but it was like a light had gone out, our fun beautiful dog was gone forever.
Her daughter was lovely, and gave us 10 years of happiness but at the price of us losing the Mother in that she changed and was very unhappy after the birth.

People don't discuss the dogs nature changing after giving birth, so maybe it's not common? But it definitely happened to my Dm dog.

People don't discuss the dogs nature changing after giving birth, so maybe it's not common? But it definitely happened to my Dm dog

From what I have heard, it is more common for male dogs temperament to change after studding - more territorial, more aggressive to other dogs but I see no reason why female dogs could not also change in personality

Just what the world needs, another backyard breeder