Not sure what to do about our (very small) dog

[Knickerbockergloryonthebeach]

We have a small crossbreed dog. She is much much smaller than we had expected her to be (we had thought Jack Russell sized at a minimum). She's a year old and we've had her since about 8 weeks I think, but is still very puppyish in her behaviour. She's very lively and forgets her commands when she's excited although she's quite well behaved at other times.

We also have two small children, who we are trying to teach to be calm around the dog but who do get a bit overexcited.

Over the weekend, the youngest managed to somehow injure her. No one saw but possibly by leaning on her. It's put one of her legs out of joint at the elbow. We've been to the vet and had xrays and we have the option of an operation with a long recovery or leaving her to see whether she manages it. If we have the operation we have no idea how we stop her from jumping, running, etc. If we don't have the operation we're worried her leg(s) will get worse as she ages.

And we're also worried that with two small children she's simply too small a dog for our family (although she's lovely in every other way, very friendly and loves our youngest).

Wondered if anyone had any advice either about the operation or if it would be kinder and safer to rehome her?

Thanks @Chloemol. She has her own area where we can lock her in and she's happy to be in there, she takes herself to bed in the night. I did think I would buy a crate for the living room as well but my worry is when she comes out how to stop her jumping up or onto the sofa.

Logically thinking, if your elbow was popping out its joint every now and again it would hurt and you would expect your GP to fix it! You need to get it done.

Our labrador had a knee that popped out and was operated on. We got a big crate for him, blocked the sofas so he couldn't jump up and we sat on the floor to keep him company and entertain him. It was a difficult 6 weeks. Dh slept downstairs with him for the first 2 weeks.

You would need to do the same and have your children sitting still on the floor or away from the pup when he is out of the crate.

Thanks @BrokenWing. It's a 3 month recovery as long as she does no further damage and would need to be crated most of the time. The vet wasn't sure whether to definitely go ahead because she is so small (tiny bones) and that crating a dog for that long might change her personality.

I'm pretty sure we will have the op, I just wondered if anyone else had had a similar thing.

Would you not still need to do the rest period even if taking conservative management/no surgery route to allow for healing to take place? Vet would usually advise on treatment plan to follow.

Dogs can get around fine on 3 legs but if not using leg properly it will lose muscle that would also support elbow so not something would want longer term.

Most with injured dogs restrict area with crate or playpen so that no running/jumping can happen. Also avoid slippy floors using mats & doing any steps. Can have out when can give full supervision to avoid mishaps. Walks are replaced with enrichment games, don't forget to reduce food intake to reflect lack of exercise as last thing will need is to carry excess weight. Usually vet gives a timeframe to check healing progress then start a gradual exercise plan.

You maybe able to do hydrotherapy to help with rehab (when vet OK's) to build up, which can also reduce exercise frustration.

Scattyhattie, thanks that's really helpful.

Yes, the concern is that if she doesn't use it, the muscle will atrophy. Today her leg has been much better and has only come out twice and gone straight back in. The vet said some dogs manage to work out how to not make it come out and then get on fine, however she will be more at risk of arthritis in the future.

We are not currently walking her but vet said OK from tomorrow and are trying to lift her on and off sofa but she does have a tendency to go haring around the place.

I had wondered about hydrotherapy.

Also, the vet said we could put off having the op for a few months if she looked like she was coping but we still wanted to go ahead. Not sure if she was a little older if she may have calmed down a bit by then?

Even if you don't go down the route of surgery, don't you still need to get her to rest and not hare around the place, though? I don't think the recovery period for surgery would be worse than the recovery period if you "just wait and see".

I think you need to take your dog to the vet (to a different one if necessary) and get it operated on! Imagine if your knee joint popped in and out all the time - it's going to hurt, right? Recovery from operations is just something that comes with having a pet, surely? Sometimes they get injured, hurt or sick and need looking after. That's just part of pet ownership.

Also if your dog really is as small as you say she is, she shouldn't be doing too much jumping around anyway as she could easily miss/fall awkwardly and hurt herself (again).

Please get her seen to and have at think about making your home a bit safer for her.

@adaline we have seen two vets, the first was a general vet who referred us to another vet who could do the surgery.

Both vets didn't think she was in pain, and it really doesn't seem as though she is a even when the leg came out she carries on running like she doesn't know its happened (apart from not using it). Tails still wagging, etc.

It's not really a recovery period at the moment as it's not like a sprain, it's just a weakness. We were told to see whether after a week it was coming out multiple times (in which case do the op) and if not then it's up to us. We weren't told not to walk her etc.

I'm really not sure how to calm a puppy down, as that's really what she is. She's very bouncy and terrier like. Vets have never told us to be especially careful with her, she's just built like a chihuahua with a terrier personality.

The recovery for the op will definitely be much worse, and again I'm not worrying about taking care of her in the recovery period, I understand that is part of being a pet owner and have previously taken care of very sick animals above and beyond what most people would have done. However, she is still very excitable and hard to calm down, and loves playing. As simple as everyone makes it sound I don't think it will be without leaving her crated most of the day, and I suppose my question was is that going to be easier for her to deal with when she's a bit older?

If you did the op it will certainly be hard work keeping her calm for three months!

Do you think you would be able to find a playpen/puppy pen so you could section off some space where she can have her toys, food and bed without having to jump up anywhere?

When you do let her out maybe she could be controlled easier with a harness and lead on? And she can have cuddles on your knee while you’re on the floor maybe to keep her from jumping off the settee.

Some calmer activities to keep her busy - a frozen kong, licky mat, tangle her favourite toy or her kibble in a blanket and let her sniff it out.

As she’s tiny maybe towards the end of her recovery you might be able to carry her round places like a cafe, pet shop etc so she gets the sights and sounds.

OP is it a luxating patella that she has , if so that is very common and can definitely in small dogs be conservatively managed if they are fairly low grade . If you look online there are exercises you can do with the dog to strengthen the joint and prevent it slipping in and out . Our dog has bilateral luxating patella , diagnosed when he was about 2 , and he’s 9 now and rarely has any bother with them , runs about off lead for hours and we just keep him slim and feed him a joint supplement .

Will the operation be less successful if you delay it? If not I would wait and see how she copes with it and whether she calms down enough to be safe to operate. If so then you need to consider ultimate quality of life. She is fine now, not shop shape but not in pain. If you go ahead with the operation and the worst happens and she injures herself badly what will that mean? Will in leave her in chronic pain? Will it render the leg completely unusable? Is there a risk of further complications. You are looking at a dodgy leg vs a perfect leg at the risk of what exactly? If an injury post op won’t result in anything worse than she has now you might as well do it. But if there is a chance the issue may resolve itself (at least to a degree) and you can wait then I would wait and see rather than put an uncomprehending animal through potentially unnecessary pain.

What were you doing leaving your excitable untrained kids alone with an excitable untrained dog? The poor dog is not too small for your family, you are too incompetent to look after a dog and kids

OP... do you mean elbow? Or knee?

Because an elbow dislocating is not something you want to manage conservatively.

If it’s luxating patella then that’s different...

We have a very small lightweight dog that was unfortunately 'trampled' as a pup. We had the option to operate but decided not to due to an underlying heart condition (for the dogs sake not due to the cost). Are you insured? Because if not that injury will now be un-insurable. We've the money set aside for if/when an op becomes a gamble between the dogs actual life and quality of life (dog is now 7yrs and we manage it with optimal weight management, vitamins, and physio - also expensive long term therapy). The main problem is dogs tend to hide pain and if you ignore the signs it will mean leaving an animal to suffer.

Oh for goodness sake.

She wasn't alone. Accidents happen (maybe not to perfect mumsnetters but to real people). Even if my mum had been watching them very closely, or I had, in a spilt second an accident can happen. It could have been me that leant on her (and I have). And my question about whether I should rehome her I hope was responsible as I want her to be able to experience a hair life not locked up constantly like most people on here think she should be around children. So maybe she should be in a non child home. At no point did I talk about dumping her without the op, or leaving her broken for someone else to deal with.

I'm not a troll as I think I should have made clear by the subsequent posts. We've seen two vets and been told to go home and see what happens. If they thought she was in pain they wouldn't let her go home and would have pushed very hard for the op.

Yes I think it's a luxating patella. My dh took her not me but things that's what the term is. I'm going to call the vet this morning to check. I can only use the description that was given to me and also the advice given to us by the vet. If they had said she was in pain we would absolutely have had the op done there and then. However vets advice was to leave it and see.

Yes she's insured.

@Velveteenfruitbowl I'm not sure, I'll call today and ask. My dh went to the appointment and it was a bit rushed as they had to xray her and were fitting her in between other appointments.

Post op the ideal scenario is perfect leg, although there is possibility that we will have the same issue with the other leg and she will need another op. Worst case is that either it's unsuccessful because she's small or that she causes herself further damage, and I think that would depend on what exactly she did.

@Floralnomad thank you, that's really helpful I'll go and have a Google.

To those of you that mentioned luxating patella thank you. Just taken a look and yes it's that. Dh is so bad at explaining things.

Vet here. Many dogs live their whole life with luxating patella. It's not an injury it's a genetic weakness, Jack Russell Terriers are particularly affected. Its a big surgery and only really recommended if it's very severe, which it sounds like it is not. Most people choose NO surgery if it's not severe, and that's usually what I recommend. Your children didnt cause the OP.

Thank you so much @LuckyKitty13 ❤️

Her leg today and yesterday has been pretty much back to normal so I'm going to speak to the vet about exercises and therapy, and also if we left it for a few months.

I realise my original post wasn't well explained but I did post to see whether others had had a similar thing so I could get some opinions about what to do. I could only go on the fairly rubbish info passed on by dh.

I honestly didn't realise that people would assume that I had left our dog in pain, unable to walk, or that we simply couldn't be bothered to take care of her.

She is a very small dog and surgery is a big deal for her, not only the actual surgery but the ga (she took a long time to come round from when she was spayed).

She is much loved, taken good care of and insured (so there are no reasons why we wouldnt have the surgery for personal reasons no matter what others have assumed).

The fact remains that small children are not easily trainable in the excitement stakes (apart from the unicorn mumsnet children who appear to be little robots) and I would love to know how others manage small dogs and small children. Actual help please as leaving her crated for most of the day doesn't seem to be a particularly happy life for her.

Hi Op. We were in absimilar positiin a couple of years ago with a 1 year old dog with severe luxating patella and a 2 and 4 year old. After the operation (a requirement in his case) he went to my MIL for a week and then bqck to us on crate rest for 4 weeks and then gradually building up with small lead walks. It wasnt as bad as I was expecting. He had a playpen with some activity toys after a few weeks and now he has the run of the kitchen/diner/utility rooms. The kids cant get in without an adult (high door handles and a baby gate!) Although his problem was not caused by the kids it gave us a wakeup call in terms of how they interact (not at all without an adult directly supervising with undivided attention!). Our dog has never been allowed free access to the whole house or allowed on furniture etc so maybe it wasnt so bad for him. But it can be done- his leg healed really well and he is a happy chap and the kids love him.

Hi OP

If she is managing without the op I would do a wait and see approach.

As for dogs and small dcs it is difficult. I am an experienced dog owner but really struggled with our whippet when ds was a toddler. You just have to be vigilant.

What I wish I had done when ddog was a pup is ban her from the sofa. She is a whippet so fairly delicate limbs and a tendency to either sprawl or curl up really small, which made it difficult to manage her and ds. What worked was a crate for ddog, with her normal bed in and being ultra strict with ds. There were times that I thought we would have to rehome ddog but we managed and when ds was 3 it was much, much easier.

You need a safe place for your puppy to be, especially when your dcs are eating, when you are distracted, when you can't physically be next to the dog. Out times must be supervised and you need to teach the dcs gentle hands. Ds is now 5, him and ddog are best of friends and always together. She misses him terribly when he's at school. Size doesn't matter, a small dog is just the same as a large dog, except it's maybe safer for the dcs if the dog is small.

Ignore the arseholes on mn.

We have same set up as @Welcometoparadise. We had the dogs long before DD. In your case you have brought the dog into a house with young children.

Whilst you say accidents happen, you have no idea what happened or how it happened. What if one of the children had been nipped for the same reason?

You need to think about the layout of your home and how it can work with a dog and young children, the lesson here being you cannot leave them unattended, even for a second.

We have a large kitchen diner. I have a wooden playpen set up as a fence dividing the entire room. Dogs are completely separate from DD. I climb in and out.

You have had plenty advice on the medical side and recovery. I do understand why people are getting annoyed though. It's an accident that could have been avoided.

Thank you @Frouby.

I'm going to bow out now and turn off notifications. Thank you to those of you who gave advice, it's helped.

To be fair, it’s probably the use of elbow instead of knee that’s made people go WTF?...

That’s why I asked because I couldn’t imagine a vet leaving a dog with a dislocated elbow.

Luxating patella is fairly unlikely to have anything to do with your DC, it’s just something that happens because of the shape of their legs.