Other dogs up in my dog's face - what to do?

[perrieryay]

My boy hates when dogs get up in his face. He loves a good butt sniff but is clearly uncomfortable if the other dog gets right into his face. My boy is a German Shepherd/Husky mix (rescue) and I've noticed that Huskies' style of play is very physical/energetic (in a play fight-y kind of way). My dog is very low energy and doesn't really enjoy playing as he is a wimp.

Anyway, today we took him out (behaviourist has called him extremely well behaved when outside of the house) to the forest. My boy happened to be on the lead when a Husky and Lab came up to him. Their owner told them to move on but they didn't listen. The husky got right in my boys face (I think he was wanting to play) with a lot of energy. Like I said 98% of the time my boy cowers but today he sort of shoved the dog back with his mouth (no biting at all). The other owner said you have to learn to his Husky. We've met the husky before who is VERY vocal and the person walking him then was literally being dragged.

I'm just at a loss, what can I do? My boy always gets compliments as he mirrors the excitement/interest of other dogs.

Not sure how the on lead dogs could be blamed, neither could the police.

There is unfortunately a lot of negativity surrounding off lead dogs which is sad. Sure there are some bad owners but in my experience the dogs just want to play.

Except that most mature adult dogs actually don't want to play...

Most adult dogs like to say a quick hello to others, maybe a brief chase then move on.
Most are very tolerant and don't show much aggression but often, they are more interested in their toy or the owner or their 'known' friends ultimately.

Adult dogs who genuinely want to play with strange dogs are fairly unusual.

And the overwhelming majority of the time, those dogs who 'just want to play' are massively rude, intimidating even and frequently will not take no for an answer.

Normal well socialised dogs don't race up to other dogs and jump all over them, follow them, push their noses in their faces or backsides etc.

Just imagine if you were having a lovely walk with your DH and someone ran over to you from the other edge of the field, grabs you close to them and starts hugging you, kissing your cheeks, insisting you play with them.

At best you'd be irritated, at worse scared and yet we expect dogs to respond to that kind of behaviour with open arms and smiles and play?!

Not sure where the police come in to it, but for a dog to escalate to killing another dog is pretty extreme. If they were on the lead then they ought to have been able to be taken out of that situation long before it got deadly. And if they’ve displayed aggression like that before (seems likely) then they should be muzzled in areas where they’re likely to encounter off-lead dogs.

I must be very lucky then as we don't experience the offputting behaviour of off lead dogs described. The dogs aren't aggressive and certainly don't just rush over and refuse to understand no from other dogs.

The ones we know and socialise with share balls, treats and toys with no aggression. When there are new dogs or puppies they are inquisitive which is natural, but don't push themselves onto the new dog.

Like I say, the negativity is quite sad because they genuinely do just play and socialise and it's lovely to see such positive bonding between them all.

The owners are quite responsible too, so we are aware of reactive dogs but they are so busy playing amongst themselves that they don't have the urge to run off.

@Walney - where are you and your dog hanging out? It sounds idyllic...can we come?!

There are lots of crappy owners around where we are and my poor pup has been the victim of quite a few unprovoked attacks in recent months. He’s got a couple of lovely playmates but I wish he had a few more with like-minded owners.

It's just a local park, but I've always thought we're very lucky as both dogs and owners are friendly and welcoming. We quite often play the find it game and throw dry dog food or treats on the ground, the dogs all hunt for it with no snapping or growling. There is another park we avoid simply because of the attitudes of the dog owners. When I first got our dog we were welcomed over straight away and she now loves her daily doggy playtime, seeing them all play so wonderfully is why I really think socialising like that is important, they learn from each other as puppies of how to play and interact with each other which helps them as adult dogs. If they weren't allowed off lead to play and interact these skills wouldn't be developed.

I really think socialising like that is important, they learn from each other as puppies of how to play and interact with each other which helps them as adult dogs. If they weren't allowed off lead to play and interact these skills wouldn't be developed

Lucky you.

I was aware on buying my dog that nervousness can be a problem in the breed (border collie) so I put great effort into socialising her with other dogs.

Over the years I have had too many to count dog owners, nearly always small breeds like jacks, shih tzus etc, coo 'ooh let's say hello' to their leashed dogs and their dog has suddenly gone for her so I stopped allowing leashed greetings a long time ago.

Off lead, I have had dogs run from opposite fields to posture and snarl at her, I've had a dog lunge and bite her neck as she was walking away from him, I've had a dog crash into her with such force she was knocked to the ground, I have had a group of dogs chase and attack her, I've had dogs that have repeatedly bounced on her play bowing and barking at her constantly while she keeps growling and snarling who them follow her when we start walking and I've dogs that have lunged for when she has just been walking past not interacting...

The result is she is now nervous around other dogs.

After years of failed desensitisation 'CARE' training and a short stint of aversive 'balanced' training I've officially given up.

She is walked off leash, she has excellent recall and will not try to approach other dogs, if we encounter another dog approaching we keep walking or sometimes I have to block her from interacting.

When she has growled or snarled at another dog (never bitten) or I have told the other owner to hold their dog while we go past I have had comments like 'if your dog is vicious it shouldn't be loose' 'your dog obviously wasn't socialised well' and 'that just goes to show those dogs aren't pets' etc.

In all honesty I am unlikely to ever get another dog.

More and more dogs I encounter seem to have issues with aggression and poor social behaviour, I don't know if it's poor breeding or lack of boundaries or what and many owners are completely clueless with their 'he just wants to play' or 'he needs a good telling off' or 'they need to socialise' bullshit.

I am sorry you have had bad experiences, but as I say the dogs we spend time with are friendly and aware of boundaries. I understand this isn't the case with all off lead dogs, but in the environment we are in with the dogs we know, it does work.

Yes, we are lucky. The dogs are great and learn from each other, and puppies learn good behaviour from older dogs as well as usual training. It is why I take issue with assuming all off lead dogs and their owners are bad. There will always be bad owners who don't see the need for training and recalling their dogs, but there are good groups too if owners simply go over and introduce themselves and say hello. We always love new additions to our doggy social group and do introductions slowly and gently so as not to overwhelm new dogs/puppies.

@Fucksandflowers mine is a collie cross and has had similar experiences to yours. She doesn't bother with other dogs, was well socialised from birth and has excellent recall but just HATES being chased. I really despair that other owners can't understand that if they have been asked to recall their dog after I have taken steps to ensure my dog is safe, and their dog won't take any fucking notice of them and is still sticking its nose up my dog's arse in spite of me having called her back to me and her sitting quietly by me, that their dog is the problem, not mine?

@Fucksandflowers

That sounds rough. I’m sorry you’re having such bad experiences.

I think more and more that dog ownership in this country should be licensed. I’ve seen a general level of ignorance amongst too many owners that is, frankly, dangerous. Dogs are complex, intelligent creatures with social dynamics and behaviours that are nothing like human ones, and too many owners fail to understand this and its ramifications for ownership.

My experiences haven’t been as extreme as yours, fortunately, but my dog too does seem to have something about him that means a lot of other dogs go for him. And I don’t mean the warning snaps and growls when he’s getting up in another dog’s face because that’s fair enough, I mean out-of-nowhere, completely unforeseen and unprovoked attacks, nearly always by large male dogs or terriers. One such attack a few months ago permanently changed him from being incredibly submissive, to more reactive, and that’s a really hard change to swallow for me.

By the same token, I know he can be a real pest to other dogs that don’t want to engage and whilst he doesn’t bark or get particularly physical with his play time, he does do face-to-face greetings with high energy, and he often gets obsessed with a dog and will follow it around with his nose up its bum. When he’s in that state his recall is out the window so I’m always hovering ready to leash him and take him away if the other dog is stressed out by it.

I do think there are lots of great owners out there doing their best with great dogs, all of whom have their quirks and issues and, like humans, who grow and change and are shaped by their experiences into imperfect beings. I just wish there was some way to require people to be educated about dogs before they got to be in charge of one so that perhaps we could avoid some of the situations described throughout this thread.

I have owned lots of dogs, some friendly some not, some anxious some confident. I understand the frustration of having to walk a dog that does not always react well in social situations. Overall I have come to a place where I have realised that the people with dogs with poor temperaments try to dictate how the dogs with good temperaments should spend their time in public spaces because it means they don't have to recognise that their dog has a problem.
If your dog is anxious or aggressive, it really doesn't mean that everyone with bouncy over enthusiastic young dogs should keep them on lead all the time and it doesn't mean they are responsible for your dogs underlying unstable temperament.
If your dog doesn't like to socialise then you need to exercise them somewhere appropriate and build up their confidence at a training group.
It takes time to teach dogs recall, and in a situation when one dog has dodgy recall but is being over friendly, and the other is on a lead but is aggressive or just panic stricken it is not the over friendly/confident dog that has the behavioural problem in this situation. Just because the other dog is not properly trained does not make it responsible for the unstable dogs reactions.
I am fed up with people projecting their dogs poor temperaments onto other dogs and other owners. This is part of a bigger issue we have in society where we don't allow dogs to behave as animals and try and fit them into our human lives without proper recognition of their own needs and abilities. Closely linked to the manic breeding of designer X breeds and the hundreds of dogs stacked up in rescue.

Overall I have come to a place where I have realised that the people with dogs with poor temperaments try to dictate how the dogs with good temperaments should spend their time in public spaces because it means they don't have to recognise that their dog has a problem

My dog only has a problem in the first place because of 1) selfish incompetent people with aggressive dogs that should not have been allowed to approach and 2) selfish incompetent people with rude, boisterous dogs who ignore normal dog signals to piss off and therefore also have a 'problem' as they obviously haven't learnt normal dog communication.

I would actually be largely okay if said selfish people were apologetic and immediately came over to retrieve their dog.

But what I actually get is at best complete ignoring leaving me to try and keep the dogs separate and at worst nasty judgemental comments about how my dog is so awful/vicious/Ill socialised/not a breed meant to be a pet etc.

If your dog is anxious or aggressive, it really doesn't mean that everyone with bouncy over enthusiastic young dogs should keep them on lead all the time and it doesn't mean they are responsible for your dogs underlying unstable temperament

I don't expect them to be on lead all the time.
I expect them to have decent recall and if on that occasion they choose not to return, which happens to us all at least once, I expect the owner to be polite and reasonable and retrieve their dog.
Many of the dogs with 'unstable temperament' started out perfectly stable and confident until they learned that rude and ill socialised, sorry, 'bouncy over enthusiastic' dogs won't stop when asked politely, nor will they leave when you get a bit more demanding by growling or snarling but if you happen to bite them they leave straightaway!

If your dog doesn't like to socialise then you need to exercise them somewhere appropriate and build up their confidence at a training group
Where would that be exactly..?
Seeing as dogs are walked everywhere!
They are at the park, the woods, the town centre, the pavements...
Where is this magical appropriate place only for nervous dogs you speak of?
And my dog would be absolutely terrified in a training group with other dogs.
Put my dog in a closed environment surrounded by other dogs and she shakes.

It takes time to teach dogs recall, and in a situation when one dog has dodgy recall but is being over friendly, and the other is on a lead but is aggressive or just panic stricken it is not the over friendly/confident dog that has the behavioural problem in this situation. Just because the other dog is not properly trained does not make it responsible for the unstable dogs reactions

Irrespective of which dog has the 'problem', and if, by the way, the 'over friendly' dog can't read the other dogs signals to leave them alone they most definately have a 'problem', most dog owners realise that leashed dogs are off limits for socialising else they would be off the lead!
Maybe because they are aggressive, maybe nervous, maybe had surgery, maybe blind.
You don't allow off lead dogs to approach leashed, it's just plain rude and inconsiderate.

Demonstrating my point in full.
It's not the fault of the rest of the world that your dog has these issues. The magical place she can exercise is in your garden or other private place.
It is really sad that she is so nervous and that experiences have contributed to this but the rest of dogs in public places who are merrily rampaging without incident should not lose their freedom and fun just to allow your dog to move about in peace, sorry.
The responsible dog owner line is just one half of the issue, We need to focus on breeding dogs more responsibly, with temperaments that suit life as a pet.
And I can't comment on whether other dogs are reading signals or not as it is often us humans that are not reading the signals and making the issue far worse than it is.

But it IS the fault of the rest of world she has issues!!
Did you not read what i put?!?!
I put great energy into socialising her as a pup, she was confident, self assured and friendly and after repeated unprovoked aggression from other dogs and excessive banging and crashing into her ignoring her pleas to stop by other she is now nervous.
How is that my fault or an underlying unstable temperament
If people had had control of their dogs she would still be confident, self assured and friendly!

You expect me to exercise a working line high drive border collie in my back garden?!
I don't think so.

My dog does not approach other dogs nor people and she recalls well, she has absolutely every right to go whenever the hell she likes.
We frequently come across normal, stable dogs who understand by her active ignoring that she does not wish to interact so they don't approach.
Normal dog behaviour.

We also come across dogs who bounce up to her, she gives a tiny growl and they back off and leave her alone.
Also normal dog behaviour.

Refusing to bog off after repeated attempts to ignore leading to shows of teeth and growling and snarling which is also ignored is not normal.
The dog does not know how to interact like a normal dog.

My dog has an excellent temperament very well suited to pet life thank you.
She is calm and self assured, she spends most of her day asleep, she isn't scared of anything except other dogs now (due to other owners), she is exceptionally tolerant and gentle with people and children, so much so that we were going to train her as a therapy dog at one point and she does pet care presentations at DSs school where she is accosted by more than 30 children in at least three different classes...

You are very selfish and exactly the reason why I don't see myself ever having another dog.

Honestly there are far easier breeds, so it would be sad if a high maintenance breed really did put you off for life.
Do you think all the irritating jack Russell and shitzus are having an equally distressing time? No they aren't, because they simply read dog life in a different way.
I am very sorry that you are experiencing this as I have genuinely been there and I know how distressing it is, but my earlier posts are from a place of hindsight, and now I am in the club of the dogs who are fine, and I realise that while it isn't the ''fault" of the over sensitive dog because they are just acting in their nature, it is also not the "fault" of the more confident dog. And ultimately the problem in the situation is the dogs who are reactive, whether that is because they have been socialised badly (over the top and over stimulating or not enough) or because they have had a negative experience and are not able to regain balance (note not all dogs attacked turn nervous or aggressive) or because they have been neutered removing their natural hormonal balance.
And my dogs have super recall and are very chilled before you assume anything about them terrorising other dogs.

My dog has been mega easy aside from her nerves around other dogs...

As I said, she literally sleeps all day.
Super easy to train, extremely obedient, totally non destructive, doesnt pester for exercise, doesn't need constant entertaining, doesn't bark, unbelievably kind and gentle with people and actually up until about 1 and half/ 2 years old she was super calm and tolerant with other dogs as well, including the vicious ones.
She would just ignore.
It was the group attack that started to change her.

In fact, considering the amount and severity of utterly unprovoked aggression she has experienced I would go so far to say it is testament to her good temperament that she still has never bitten even when other dogs have actively gone for her and still tries to ignore and avoid contact with them.

She isn't a particularly 'sensitive' dog, she has no fears whatsoever aside from other dogs which is entirely down to others selfishness and incompetence.
As I have said, she was extensively socialised and confident and friendly.

Sooner or later any dog, no matter how 'stable' will start to get nervous and/or reactive if they are regularly picked on for no reason.

I'm not put off from having dogs by her, she is a great dog, I wouldn't hestitate to have the breed again.
I am put off by the ever increasing numbers of aggressive and ill socialised dogs of all sorts of breeds; shih tzus, jacks, poodle mixes, labs, boxers, GSDs etc, that are allowed to hurt and intimidate others and I am put off by the huge amounts of utterly selfish entitled owners who are incapable of basic manners.

Don't let your dog approach dogs who clearly don't want to be approached.
It's rude.
If it's leashed you don't approach it.
If (as I do) we see you coming and make a point of going the opposite direction or massively moving as far to the side as we possibly could leaving masses and masses of space don't approach.
If your dog approaches anyway apologise and remove the dog.
It's just basic manners and consideration.
Sadly lacking in most of the dog owning population.

I am bowing out now, I rarely come into doghouse because of the judgemental crap on here as demonstrated by you.

Dog owners on the whole are a very entitled, batshit crazy bunch as demonstrated by the countless dog threads here and in AIBU and what I experience personally out and about.

Unfortunately it sounds like you need to find a different place to take your dog if the amount of attacks are happening that you say are happening. At the very least wherever it is you go needs to be reported.

It certainly shouldn't stop friendly dogs from enjoying each other's company. I think of myself as s considerate owner and it is extremely rare that I see any bad interactions, when I do it is generally on lead dogs being aggressive rather than off lead. And no, it happens even when off lead dogs respect boundaries and follow social cues. I'm certainly not going to be stopping my well trained dog from playing and enjoying her friends anytime soon. I have stated previously that the dogs we interact with are well trained, do recall and play together brilliantly as well as not bothering new/on lead dogs until new owners agree it's ok. I'm actually quite fed up of automatically assuming owners are negligent or bad just because we let our dogs play together.

It's all over walney.

When in the house she sleeps all day but being a healthy collie once out she'll obviously go for as long as I want without tiring, although we do sometimes have short walks or sometimes none at all a walk is typically 2 - 4 hours, so we go far and wide.

That said we do also come across many well socialised dogs who recognise that she isn't looking at them and is actively trotting on her way and they don't approach and we encounter lots who do follow her but back off immediately when she gives a little growl, but unfortunately we also encounter the other kind sometimes.

It isn't even just dog aggression I'm noticing to be honest, dogs just seem to be getting worse temperament wise generally and their owners seem far more unfriendly and inconsiderate too.

Both me and DH have had (leashed) dogs go for us more than once and I had a loose GSD go absolutely bonkers barking and growling at my DD in her stroller once, that was fucking terrifying.

The owners are never in any way horrified or apologetic.
The last time DH was bitten the woman said absolutely nothing and went to walk off, it was only when DH quite calmly informed her that he didn't have the children with him that morning but dare her dog bite them he wouldn't be so accommodating and the dog would regret it that she opened her mouth, not to apologise that her dog has bitten and ragged his ankle but to give him much verbal abuse.

And I don't assume that owners who let dogs play together are bad, but I do think it is bad to let your dog approach another who clearly doesn't want to interact; whether that is being leashed or whether it's looking visibly nervous or whether it's making a point of actively ignoring.
I think that is inconsiderate and rude and I think that if your dog does approach a dog who clearly doesn't want to be approached I think you should apologise and remove the dog.

Not all dogs want to socialise with others, I think others should respect that.

I do respect on lead dogs as do the owners in our group. If you read my posts you will see that we only let our dogs approach new dogs on their terms and after confirming it's ok with the owners.

As I say, when I see well trained dogs playing daily I find it sad when there is the assumption we are all bad, and when approached the right way being together is a joy to watch.

That's why I think owners need to be friendly themselves and approachable, on or off lead dogs regardless. It must be why our doggy social group works so well.

Things like yellow leads/collars are fantastic because that's an immediate signal to either leash our dogs or just be extra careful.

I do respect on lead dogs as do the owners in our group. If you read my posts you will see that we only let our dogs approach new dogs on their terms and after confirming it's ok with the owners

I know, I was just saying that so many don't and let their dogs bounce up to dogs that clearly do not wish to interact and I think it's really rude and inconsiderate.