What makes a Decent Breeder ?

[Jouska]

Yep a TAT

What criteria makes a decent breeder? (please dont say kennel cub assured as we know this has many issues)

Jouska the crucial question is why are you breeding a spaniel and a poodle? Take for example the labradoodle. Historically the first crosses were bred to produce a hypoallergenic guide dog for the blind. Of course I don’t know everything about the first breeder, but this could be a good reason for breeding these dogs. Then he discovered that the resulting dogs were not suitable as guide dogs so he stopped the breeding, also seems like a responsible decision. If the breed does not do what you want it to, tool.

Compare this with the reasons many other labradoodle owners breed them, ie. to make money quickly, and the problem is evident.

This idea of 'bettering the breed' really troubles me. Breeding to 'better the breed' (in the sense of making it look more like the current breed ideal) has been one of the factors pushing up average COIs, because so many breeders, seeking that perfect earset or whatever, have used the same sire. Rather than Joe Average-looking Dog and Fred Average-looking Dog and Bob Average-looking Dog and Twinkletoes Fab-looking dog being used four times each, Twinkletoes is used sixteen times ( or more...). His progeny look even better, so his sons are heavily used too, and before you know where you are, virtually every line in the breed has Twinkletoes in there somewhere. And there's this peculiar new health problem too...

'Bettering the breed' can mean breeding away from conformational or health disasters, or improving temperament or working ability, and in that case I'm all for it - but you must do with an eye to the overall impact on the breed. And any sane breed club should be prepared to admit that sometimes it means an outcross.

As for where you find a decent breeder, as @BorderlineExperimental says, it's not where they advertise, it's who they are. I've known a thoughtfully bred and well-reared litter be posted on ChampDogs (and I don't know many breeders). Advertising there doesn't mean that they didn't have a waiting list of three or four people, and aren't keeping a puppy themselves.

Working puppies are often found by word of mouth, but not always. And word of mouth might only be, 'I know this bloke the other side of Cambridge, his bitch just had a litter, nice dog, works lovely, he's a good bloke, handles his dogs
nicely, nah mate, haven't got his details, look up the advert and have a chat...'

If you go the advert route, read it carefully. If the bitch is in pup, ask to meet her asap. Look for photos of the owners doing stuff with their dogs. If the puppies are born, see photos of their early days and make sure the background and the bitch are the same as the background and the bitch in front of you.

By bettering the breed I would take it to mean creating puppies with fewer faults. By that I don’t mean show standards but health and confirmation issues. So a pug breeder aiming for dogs that can actually breathe without snorting and can run without needing to stop for a lie down.
My dog came from show lines and we have done some showing. But she’s a pet.

Bettering the breed' can mean breeding away from conformational or health disasters, or improving temperament or working ability, and in that case I'm all for it - but you must do with an eye to the overall impact on the breed. And any sane breed club should be prepared to admit that sometimes it means an outcross.

Yes,that's what I meant .

Puppy farms & people thinking they can make a quick buck , have caused huge issues with some breeds.
They rarely care for the dogs welfare or screen for hereditary conditions.
I don't agree with "breed standard" to the detriment of the dog.

So a pug breeder aiming for dogs that can actually breathe without snorting and can run without needing to stop for a lie down.

Exactly Wolfie ,this is so important & I wish all who breed dogs would make it a priority!

I met one out walking and honestly thought it was growling at my dog. No. It was just breathing apparently. And that’s considered normal. Madness.
We did buy a pedigree but one of the reasons we went with this breeder was her concern for health and confirmation and movement of the dog. Fit and fit for purpose should be the aim.

"Bettering the breed" is a normative term, it can't stand alone, the breeder has to give content to it.

I was with one of my dogs at the vets a while ago, and I heard the most horrendous wheezing racket from the other side of the door. Yup. Some poor bloody bulldog, the other side of the waiting room. It looked like quite a young dog, too. Its not ethical, it's not justifiable, it's not necessary.

I have no idea where that bulldog came from, but the issues in the brachy breeds (and others) cannot all be laid at the feet of puppy farmers and ignorant money-making pet-owners: the show scene has to take some responsibility. You've only got to look at some of the dogs placed at Crufts over the last few decades to see that. Bassetts have never been particularly common dogs, and have mostly been bred by either bassett packs or people who show them. The split between the dogs who are bred to follow a scent and the poor sods with droopy eyelids, stunted legs and chests almost on the ground is very, very obvious.

Similarly, the show scene is driving a split between field and non-working lines in other breeds. I heard a conversation recently between two people who breed and work one of the hunt-point-retrieve breeds, and they were complaining about the show ring preference for a particular style of movement, and how getting this means breeding dogs that are straighter in the shoulder, which you absolutely do not want with an HPR, as these are dogs that are meant to range widely either side of their handlers, covering the ground at speed. Essentially, the show ring is driving the production of dogs that are less sound, rather than more.

And that's before I get back to bloody COI again. Some show kennels have turned out dogs with eye-watering COIs over the years. I daresay there are working kennels that have too, but in my experience of looking for a puppy, field-bred dogs generally have lower COIs. This is probably in part because dogs that are worked are much more often kept intact than pet dogs, so there are more dogs around capable of being bred.

Our breeder interviewed us. She told us when the pups were due, she showed us the scan pics. She had videos of the litter as soon as they were born, we got a running commentary of the labour , she gave daily updates and photos and videos of the pups. She showed us the first time they ate food, the first time they went on grass, the first time they went to the vets, first time in the car. Plus other firsts

We met the mum, it was the mum as we saw her with all the pups feeding from her. We met the dad. We have all the certificates for mum and dad and all the ancestry. We have the health certificates for all the parents checks. The pups were microchipped, she gave us strict instructions which vaccinations they should have for second vacs and if the vet disagreed to call her to discuss. They were weaned onto high quality food.

She has a FB page which chronicles all the dogs including her retired dogs. She has photos and benches and ashes of all her old and dead dogs all over her house. We signed a contract about what we can and cant do with the dog and she’s has a FB page for each litter which she keeps live for a year after the pups go to their families

However, as she breeds poodle crosses then she’s obviously a back yard breeder and running a puppy farm doing it for all the wrong reasons and should be avoided at all costs

Grumpy I completely agree it’s not all down to puppy farmers. Just look at the top line of some GSDs in the show ring. The slope is awful.

Show line GSDs are indeed a shambles, @Wolfiefan. As soon as dogs start to be bred to a standard of appearance, and for the fashion within that standard, the problems start.

Completely agree @GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman.
Dogs need to be fit for purpose and able to do all the things dogs should be able to enjoy. Run free and play etc. GSD now are nothing like those I remember fondly as a child.

Aesthetically I do not like the sloping GSD either, but the claims that it causes physical problems are not well substantiated. Many GSDs that people don’t like the look of are Schutzhund champions, which is not something a dog with physical problems can achieve.

It is interesting what applepieicecream has said. I think there are some decent breeders of cross breeds.

Really Boo that amazes me as most Schtzhund champions I have seen are very much not the sloping back but I have judged abroad maybe it is different in the uk.

That surprised me, @Booboostwooo, so I had a quick look. It seems that the KC has concerns that over-angulation might lead to health issues, and research from a couple of years ago showed that almost half of GSDs to die as a result of musculoskeletal disorders, being unable to stand and spinal cord problems. It's not proven that this is connected to the curved backs of so many of these dogs, but it makes me suspicious. Apparently further research is underway.

Yes, the jury is out and given the prevalence of Degenerative Myelopathy in GSD and the fact that it often goes undiagnosed, my personal view is that it may be difficult to see the wood for the trees. I would be interested in more answers, one of my dogs is always a GDS but I am getting fed up with losing them early despite all reasonable precautions and I don’t think I have it in my heart to get another one.

That's grim, @Booboostwo: losing a dog is bad enough but must even worse when they are young(ish). I'm fortunate that the breeds I love are pretty healthy.

Dogs need to be fit for purpose and able to do all the things dogs should be able to enjoy. Run free and play etc. GSD now are nothing like those I remember fondly as a child

Yes,yes & yes again ,heartbreaking isn't it

I have no idea where that bulldog came from, but the issues in the brachy breeds (and others) cannot all be laid at the feet of puppy farmers and ignorant money-making pet-owners: the show scene has to take some responsibility.

I agree ,in-fact show breeders need to take a lot more responsibility for their part.(they won't though)

IMO show breeders ,BYB & puppy farmers have all played a part in causing the damage we see in certain breeds, but ,BYB & PF have accelerated the spread of detrimental conditions ,especially in brachy breeds.

A lot of brachy dogs end up in rescue because of these conditions, the operations to rectify breathing issues alone can be expensive.

30 years ago,hardly anyone knew of brachy dogs ,especially French bulldogs,they were rarely seen out & about ,those that were ,were in a much better condition than most you see nowadays .
If you go back further, the difference in build and muzzle shape is so noticeable,I guess it's the same for a lot of breeds.

My mum has a circa 1950s dog book. Many of the breeds now look completely unlike what’s in the book. I’m not saying all change is bad but some is shocking.

Look at where the dogs live, ask to see the dogs who live there and not just the puppies.

My dog is a rescue who lived at a breeders for 8 years. Him, and most of her other dogs were kept in kennels, several to a kennel and weren't walked or bothered with.

This is a kennel club assured breeder.

That makes me so sad & it gives me the rage @crazycatgal.
I wish that all breeders were monitored & that the kennelling you've described could be stopped
It's no life for such intelligent ,loving creatures is it ? and it also doesn't help with the socialisation of any pups.

This thread has really played with my emotions tbh, & Gin I think I need to start doing the lottery!!
I've always said that I'd eventually like a house outside of the city,with a bit of land ,somewhere that the golden oldies could come till the end of their days loved,spoilt & in comfort.
Ive realised now it won't be enough...I need to be a millionaire

Personally I don’t like slopping back GSDs BUT

• there are two breed trends, which are often not distinguished in discussions. One is the dog which effectively has a straight back but the hind quarters are lower than the withers. This effect can be exaggerated by how the dog stands for showing. This trend is prevalent in the breeding of show line GSDs and affects a few of the working lines as well. The other trend is the breeding of roach back dogs, dogs whose back has a hump. These dogs have caused the most controversy.

• while I don’t like either trend aesthetically myself, I wouldn’t let my personal preferences lead me to make health judgements about the breed. This is a really important point. If we are interested in dog welfare then what counts as a healthy dog has to be based on facts not personal preferences. DM and hip dysplasia have been huge factors in the poor health of the GSD - hip dysplasia is now much better controlled through careful breeding, but DM is so prevalent in the breed it is unclear what a responsible breeder should do about it. Neither is associated with straight, sloping or humped backs despite what it looks like. It might feel like GSDs we’re healthy, bouncy, balls of energy in the good old times of our youth and cripple misers now, but feelings do not generate health facts (nor do blogs by rants individuals which just confirm what our original feelings were).

What counts as a healthy dog for breeding purposes should not be decided by an outraged mob online. There is a wonderful passage in an 1879 book by Anthony Trollope where a character bemoans the lack of horsemanship in the youth of today. Irresponsible young people come to the countryside for the weekend from the city and expect a day’s hunting on a horse without knowing anything about horse care, management or riding. You could take the piece and stick it in the Horse and Hound Forum and it would go down a treat because everyone likes to have a moan about how standards are slipping since the good old days.

I wasn't aware that DM was such a prevalent problem in GSDs. And yes, I totally agree that we have to go with facts not on-line hysterics.

Even so, the conformation of many GSDs is a long way from what is generally regarded as that of a functional dog. I'm not an expert by any means, but I think I know enough (and have seen enough dogs) to say that cow hocks are unusual in working-bred gundogs.

I would say that if you accept the gene for DM has been identified correctly (there was some discussion about this last time I looked, but it was beyond my ability to judge either way) then yes it seems to be everywhere. Since dogs with one gene can be symptomatic it’s going to be very difficult to breed this out. It’s a horrible condition but trying to breed out carriers may not be feasible given other mating requirements.