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Puppy advice please

17 replies

Tootricky · 18/05/2019 08:19

Hi, after much deliberation and months of planning and research we have decided to get a cocker spaniel puppy.
We have seen a few which are due around now which is perfect timing for us.
Can anyone advise us on which setup seems best?
Pup1: not KC reg but dad is health checked. Lady breeding seems nice, has been in close contact all through pregnancy. Wants to create a nice experience in that we are welcome to visit pups as often as we like, she will send daily videos of the pup, she will call the pup by it’s name etc. Problem is that in order that we connect with our pup early (and so the rest of her waiting list can do the same) she wants us to choose a pup within first 2 weeks! She seems to want us to choose from a photo or to go and have a look. Seems way to early to me. She says she’s not risking infection because she will only be letting her waiting list (5 or 6 people) in to see them.
Pup2: KC Rev from breeder who has and works Gundogs. He won’t let anyone see his pups until 8 weeks old as he worries that if people visit other pups on the way to see his they will pass on infection. He will take deposits and we wait to choose until pick up day.

Pup3: KC reg. They work their dogs. They own mum and dad dogs, dad is health checked, the dogs are in no way related. They have no waiting list but will let me know when they’re born and we choose around 4-5 weeks. I don’t know how they feel about people visiting once we’ve chosen. Their communication isn’t the best!
So would you choose one of these or keep looking?
TIA

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BiteyShark · 18/05/2019 08:27

Pup 1. I don't see why anyone wouldn't register with KC if a pedigree so that would be a no straight away for me.

Secondly health checked just means a check by a vet. It means nothing. Personally I wanted dna checks for certain generic conditions from the parents when I choose my cocker spaniel.

Pup 2. For me personally more promising than pup 1 but if he is breeding to keep and work them you need to think about how you feel about a strong working/hunting drive in what I presume will be a pet. Also I didn't want my puppy to have a docked tail and if he is breeding dogs to work I suspect that they will be.

Pup 3. Again health checked just means a vet check. Communication is key. If I found it hard to get information from them on the phone I didn't bother to see them.

Tootricky · 18/05/2019 08:33

Thanks for that @BiteyShark. The First Lady said she wasn’t KC registering as she had had an extension and the paperwork for her dog was all packed away. She does have a piece of paper to say the dad dog is clear of certain diseases.
This is so difficult. You’re right about the working dogs. Will they behave differently to other pups do you think?
We are so excited about it all but sooooo want to get it right.

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BiteyShark · 18/05/2019 08:38

I have a working cocker but from parents that were kept as pets. I didn't want docked tails and yes he has a strong hunting urge but not as strong as some (I have done gun dog training).

The excuse about paper work is rubbish. That screams laziness at the best and lying at the worst.

Read up on genetic testing so you know how recessive diseases work and decide yourself how you feel about having no tests. Personally there were a few that I know would have caused issues for us (beyond the dog being affected) which is why I choose a puppy that was guaranteed to be clear of them.

LizzieMacQueen · 18/05/2019 08:39

Are you getting a show or working cocker?

Show cockers are generally less bouncy/energetic if that's what you want.

I think breeder 2 sounds the most sensible but I'm surprised you've got a pick from 3. You must live in a very connected area. Or is it just you're planning to travel loads?

Tootricky · 18/05/2019 08:40

Thanks @BiteyShark. I think we’d best keep looking! Smile

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Tootricky · 18/05/2019 08:44

Thanks @LizzyMacQueen. We are prepared to travel an hour or so in any direction. We want a working type as we have a few friends with them and we think (hope) we are active enough to keep up with all that energy!

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BorderlineExperimental · 18/05/2019 12:27

The cocker spaniel breed club has some good information on health testing here. Preferably you want both parents to have had a BVA eye test and a BVA gonioscopy, the former within the twelve months prior to the mating and the latter within three years prior. Both should also have been DNA tested for Progressive Retinal Atrophy (prcd-PRA), Familial Nephropathy (FN), Adult Onset Neuropathy (AN/AON) and, if you’re looking at working types, Acral Mutilation Syndrome (AMS). Hip scoring is both mentioned by the breed club and recommended by the KC but it seems there are very, very few breeders who actually do it.

You also want to check the inbreeding coefficient of any litters you’re interested in, this article explains what the COI is and why it’s important. A very simple explanation is that whilst health screening schemes help breeders reduce or eliminate the risk of puppies being affected by certain specific conditions, keeping inbreeding levels low reduces the chances of puppies being affected by either untestable or as yet unknown conditions (there’s a list on this page of health issues seen in the breed which can’t be tested for but likely have some degree of heritability). I would personally be aiming to try and find a litter with a COI below 5%.

You can use the KC’s Mate Select tools to check both health test results of the parents and the COI of the litter providing you have the registered names of both parents. I believe all the aforementioned tests are recommended by the KC so if the parents have been tested the results should be there.

The Champdogs website has quite a good little guide to buying a puppy plus an accompanying list of questions to ask breeders. It’s also worth reading their guide for breeders interviewing prospective buyers as it’ll give you an idea of the sorts of things breeders should be asking you.

Lastly this site has a breakdown of the developmental stages of puppies and gives you an idea of the basic things a breeder should be doing to maximise the chances of their pups being prepared for their new homes and growing up into well rounded adult dogs. It’s also important to acknowledge that how a dog is raised is only part of it, temperament is also the result of a dog’s breeding. Parents with good, sound temperaments are more likely to produce pups with the same. This article (written by a veterinary behaviourist) is well worth a read.

In an ideal world you’d have no problems finding a breeder who does everything perfectly however, realistically, you might have to end up compromising somewhere, even if it’s only travelling further than you’d prefer or waiting longer for the right pup. All you can do is research as much as possible and decide what you want from a breeder.

Floralnomad · 18/05/2019 12:30

I’d keep looking and I’d be prepared to travel a lot further for the right dog .

OverFedStanley · 18/05/2019 12:59

Puppy 1 would worry me that only the dad has been tested. You need to see certification from both parents and there is no reason a breeder would not have registered unless inexperienced or not legit.

Absolutely NOT puppy 2 - if the puppies have not met people bu the age of 8 weeks you are going to have massive socialisation issues. Most breeders would want to see the new owners and check them over before handing over the puppies so again this would be a flag for me.

Pup 3 I would follow up on - if it is a second mating I would ask to speak to other owners of the previous puppies, the timings sound better and lack of contact would not be a big issue as long as they did get back to e eventually - dog people are usually busy people.

Re working pups and show dogs I would always get a working dog over any other type. They are usually breed for temperament (Well gun dogs especially you would not want a neurotic dog at the gun) they may be driven but also have an off switch as working dogs have a lot of time out on drives etc.

OverFedStanley · 18/05/2019 13:00

Also re Puppy 2 I expect that the pups will not be reared in a house and you will have to work hard at socialisation to household living which at 8 weeks will take time and effort

ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs · 18/05/2019 13:10

With pup 1 I would be wondering why not if registered. The paperwork excuse sounds iffy. How many litters has mum had and what age is she? If a birch has had more than the recommended amount of litters or is too old or too young the pups can't be registered, and that would concern me.

I think a good breeder would want to meet you early on. Infection shouldn't really be an issue. We travelled miles to meet our pup when he was 3 weeks old, I knew the breeder was sussing us out, it felt like a job interview, but that's the way it should be! A good breeder wants to know that his/ her pups are going to good homes. Our breeder turned away a good few people. So for that reason I think pup 2 is also a bit off. Also, you want to meet mum and possibly dad to get an idea of your pup's background and genetics. If mum is wary/ hyper etc it is likely your pup could have similar traits.

Good luck with your pup, it sounds like you are taking your research seriously, which is great! Smile

Tootricky · 19/05/2019 07:21

@BorderlineExperimental thanks for all of that information. The photo of the dad dog’s health test paperwork seems to say the dog is clear of EIC, PFK,PRCD. Does that mean the other things you mentioned F.N., etc haven’t been tested for?

@Floralnomad, we did discuss how far we should travel and we’re worried about the poor pup having to drive too far to get home. Do you think it’d be ok to go longer than an hour? Widening our search area may help!
@OverFedStanley the puppy 1 lady is certainly inexperienced. This is her dog’s first litter and she wants to offer a different experience of getting a pup. She keeps saying she’s not a breeder. She wants to raise family puppies and get to know all her buyers. She’s terribly excited about it. Puppy 2’s pups will be in the house until 5 or 6 weeks old and then out in the kennel.
@ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs I spoke to puppyman 2. He rambled on about not bringing infections to his pups but didn’t even ask where we live or if we work/have kids/have had a dog before...nothing!

Thanks all for your advice and information. Will let you know x

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BiteyShark · 19/05/2019 07:39

I actually came away with copies of my parents DNA tests so I could verify them. And if it doesn't state clear of x then yes they haven't been tested.

This is her dog’s first litter and she wants to offer a different experience of getting a pup

And not being KC registered for a pedigree in my mine means giving you a 'worse' experience. If you aren't bothered about the whole pedigree thing you would get a mongrel or rescue.

You only have to bring the puppy home once. We travelled 3 hours for ours. Working cockers are a common breed. I would look further than an hour.

OverFedStanley · 19/05/2019 08:58

I know that I come from the behavioural view and harp on about this a lot but if your breeder does not know about ENS and is not letting your puppy experience this than again walk away.

It sounds like breeder No1 will not.
Breeder no 2 will not if he is putting 5 week old puppies out in a kennel.

Our last puppy we travelled for 4 hours to get and it was well worth the trip!

Behavioural issues and temperament can last a life time and can be hard to live with a lot of these are created in the first 8 weeks so do take your time to research and find the right breeder. It could save you a life time of stress and money!

Floralnomad · 19/05/2019 10:52

It will be fine travelling home from any distance really , just make lots of stops if necessary .

Floralnomad · 19/05/2019 10:53

Also should have said ask your friends where they got their working cockers from as you’ve seen their dogs etc .

Tootricky · 23/05/2019 17:19

Quick update. We have found another puppy (which was actually just born last night. We’re hoping this could be the litter for us! They are about 2 hours away and both parents are DNA clear of all the Nast diseases and have clear eye tests. They will be KC registered. The breeder isn’t advertising til they’re 6 weeks old and he said I can go down at 4 weeks and choose the one I want. He has a little red girl with a white blaze on her face and a white chest. I’m trying not to get too excited...but I am sooooo excited!!!

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