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From bad to worse

49 replies

MissKittyBeaudelais · 28/02/2019 22:12

I have a beautiful golden retriever. She’s 4 in May. She’s a big girl. True to the breed she loves mud, water, rolling in Lord knows what and eating. All good.

Recently, she’s becoming really narky. Don’t get me wrong, she’s never been a softie but she’s getting more and more defiant. I can’t take her to the park to throw a ball because she’ll just steal other dogs balls and then get really aggressive and won’t given them back. I have to bribe her to give what she’s stolen back. She’s always been possessive but it’s escalating to a point where I can’t allow her to play with other dogs. She’ll start by playing but as time goes on she get proper snarly.

She’s had a lot of training. One lot of residential training for a month where we weren’t allowed to visit her. She came home not much different. I’ve also done three lots of training near home. One lot of it “one to one”.

Also, she refuses to walk say, around the block. She wants to go HER WAY (where she knows the mud and water is). I can’t MOVE her forward or back (as the trainer said to do) and I can stand there for ten minutes ++ but have to give in and go HER way, in the end.

Today, I wanted to cross the road at a slightly different point on the due to road works. She wouldn’t allow me to. I know that sounds bloody stupid but I HAD to cross in the usual spot or go nowhere. Drivers could see what was happening and were chuckling in their cars but....I was in tears by the time I got home. It’s not funny and I’ve had 3 and a half years of it. It’s warming me out. I think...”god, I’ve got to walk the dog now”.

Any suggestions ? Is she ill, naughty, bored, lonely (I’m at home all day but busy busy) or just plain wilful?

OP posts:
Fluffypot333 · 02/03/2019 15:44

Retrievers and labs are very prone to hip and elbow dysplasia even quite young that's not to say she has either and swimming is actually good for it but it could be why she prefers the softer ground and swimming or she could be just stubborn and likes what she likes and that's just it lol

adaline · 02/03/2019 19:33

I honestly think three walks a day is too much as well. We have a teenage beagle and he only gets walked once - in the morning. He would happily go longer but I find anything upto 90 minutes is perfect - anything longer and he doesn't actually get any more tired - if anything he gets over-hyped and won't settle down at all.

In the summer he'll get more trips out as the weather improves - trips to the beer garden or for picnics and things but he's quite happy on one walk a day - not destructive or anything. He'll play with his toys in the evening, have dinner and a chew and either watch TV with us or sleep in his blanket pile!

MissKittyBeaudelais · 02/03/2019 22:13

Yes, 3 would be too much. She’s having two per day in reality because I had to stop the lunchtime one.

OP posts:
Parly · 03/03/2019 07:16

Long ass reply so get a brew and get comfy.

No more trainers especially residential training Sad That worries me to be honest I'd be really interested to find out more details and info about who and where you sent her for a month of 1-1 training. A random one for another time but in the meantime what I would do and suggest might be worthwhile.

Go easy on your dog. If she has been subject to different people expecting different things including a trainer whose techniques, methods and overall way of doing things you don't know and can't assume one way or another, you could well have a very confused and unsure dog.

Give her a break and go easy on yourself. You don't have the equivalent of Cujo running around killing small children and livestock you just have what sounds like a very typical retriever who maybe got lost and could use a few back to basics and simple refresher training.

All dogs push buttons, tests limits and act up no matter what breed or how they're trained and whatnot. Same way kids act up and work out which people are soft, which aren't and who won't put up or give in to a tantrum, dogs push buttons and will play us like fiddles too if they can.

Doesn't mean they're badly behaved or disobedient and need bringing in with a firm and harsh hand – it just means they're normal Smile

Retrievers are generally speaking known for being a) Lovely, good natured dogs and great family pets but b) Greedy fat bastards driven by food to the point they'll eat themselves to death if allowed and c) Obsessive and prone to resource guarding toys and tendency to nick and not let go of tennis balls.

A really common and typical problem owners have with the breed and actually one of the most straight forward things to resolve.

As a very general idea and from just the brief info here, this is what I would probably do for now

Walk her on a long-line and don't let her off at all just yet.

Get a harness and long-line or lead rope – whatever gives you confidence and better control for now and keep her securely fastened at all times for now.

She'll pull and argue and be annoying as hell initially because it's always worked for her until this point but each time she pulls, gets ahead or starts trying to drag you all over, stop dead on the spot and give one clear “SIT” then let her decide when and for how long this goes on.

Go no further and do nothing / say nothing else until she sits.

Don't yell, start repeating it or bribing her with food treats or anything else because she's already cottoned on and will probably expect that to work for her again.

No need for being harsh or doing anything other than giving her one clear word and letting her either do as you ask to get where she wants to be or not doing as you ask, fighting all the way and it serving absolutely no purpose anyway.

Dogs aren't daft.

There's much debate over the use of harnesses some trainers full-on, critical and keen to judge and jump on for people using them. For now you need only keep control and stop her slipping the lead and legging it . If that means a harness and rope instead of standard collar and lead – use one. It's not about what's right or wrong and whose method or technique is technically the best or anything else along those lines.

It's about you keeping hold of your dog, stopping her running away / keeping her safe and you feeling confident and in control.

Routines and exercise

Don't go mad or try to cram in a lot of exercise and activity there's no need and if anything she would probably be better off getting in a habit of just short, sweet walks on the lead. learning basic manners and adopting a nice steady routine.

An early morning walk just for 15-20 mins first thing and another during the day and again in the evening with access to outside for when she needs a pee and whatnot is more than enough.

Where possible try to make slight changes to your route so she's not anticipating everywhere you're going and getting overexcited and too ahead of herself.

You needn't run her ragged it can do more harm than good. For now the main aim is just getting her used to walking with and alongside you on a lead without dragging and pulling and barging everywhere.

Games and ways to make it fun and easier for her to learn

Dogs benefit more from brain games, mental stimulation and are better balanced overall when they have just a few short and sweet walks with time spent and training at home for simple games and activities at home.

Inside the house you can work on simple trick training or games that will get her brain going and help her to focus, stay switched on to you and follow your instruction.

Use what drives and motivates her so things like hiding little food treats inside a puzzle activity and encouraging her to find it is a good way to make her switch on and listen.

I find horse toys and stable boredom busters are better than most dog toys because they're made of better stuff and much more durable.

Letting go of toys and tennis balls on cue

Teaching her how to play hide and seek with a tennis ball or favourite toy is another simple but really effective way to use her brain, tap into what drives and motivates her and use it to your advantage.

Let her see and smell a tennis ball.

Hide it in an obvious place she sees you put it and then “Go find!” which of course if she sees makes it easier.

Step it up gradually and hide it under cushions in the same room or obvious place in the next room and when she goes to it – heaps of praise and “Yeee!!” or food treat whatever.

It's the ideal way to start work on teaching her to let go of whatever she's robbed and won't give up too. When dogs nick stuff belonging to other dogs out side, lot of people understandably grab and try to force the dog to let go. Retrievers are notorious for it but the simplest thing that often worst best is just don't pull and fight for it.

Literally hold the ball gently with your fingers, give one word whatever you use but for example “Drop it” “Let go” just once then wait.

The majority will automatically release and give it up without much fight or fuss. It's the pulling and resistance that makes them clamp down harder and decide to wrestle you for it most of the time.

Just hold and in a firm voice “Hey – drop it” and wait.

You can work on that from playing simple hide and seek in the house and each time she lets the ball go loads of “Yeeee good girl!” and a treat or whatever reward.

The aim is helping her learn to listen, focus, understand and follow your instruction. Few people even some pro-trainers really appreciate that dogs need to learn how to learn before they can learn.

We expect too much from dogs and give too little in terms of help with learning.

If and when she has mastered giving up a toy from the simple games inside the house and has learned to “drop” or “let go” you can even give her something to hold and carry whilst walking on the lead outside. One of mine used to love carrying a flying ring around with her and it would end up rank and dripping in saliva by the time we got home but she was never happier trotting around with that thing stuck in her mush.

My youngest dog came from a farmer who is without doubt one of the most successful, well known and highly respected sheepdog trainers and handlers in the country. He has training kennels people pay a fortune to have him train their dogs up for work, has won the international sheepdog dog trials twice and sells dogs he's trained for thousands.

The dog we took off him as a 1yr old fought constantly and wouldn't even walk to heel without constantly needing bringing back in and correcting and the poor lad was yelled at and yanked hard on the lead if he so much as blinked without being asked. He wasn't abused or neglected in any way but this farmer was just the sort that approached all dogs the same way. It was basically get bollocked if you get it wrong and if you don't get bollocked just join the dots and hope for the best.

The same day we brought him home it struck me how he didn't know “good boy” which when I said it made him stare at me vacantly with his head cocked to the side like I'd dropped from the sky. Taught him that good boy was “Yeee!! Grin Best thing ever Grin I'm super happy and you did it right!!Grin” and with that he was switched on and has since lived to get a “good boy”

Like toddlers, when things are fun or rewarding – dogs want to engage, do more and make us happy and dogs like retrievers live and breathe to make us happy.

When it's not at all fun and everything comes with a harsh word, heavy hand and some form of punishment they don't' want to engage at all and to be honest, who would?

So yeah – long post and lots of info here I know but ultimately it's just a case of going back to basics.

Short sweet walks a few times a day on-lead at all times for now.

Praise what she does well even the slightest effort and failed attempts. Even a failed effort is an effort so give credit and praise where due.

Don't bribe or start getting frustrated and letting her wear you out. She'll try that's a 100% money back guarantee.

Lots of playing at home and using it to work on tweaking and getting that ball drive and obsessive streak working in your favour through a simple one word instruction to say “let go”

Keep it simple

Write a basic schedule for walks and indoor games and activities. Be clear and consistent and do not start letting things slip or getting lazy or she'll have you and work her way right back to being a toe-rag all over again.

I promise she will so much happier for it once you're in a routine and she has learned rules, boundaries, limits and is no longer constantly testing and pushing your limits and looking for trouble.

Before long you will be able to really enjoy having the best breed of dog there is to have as a family pet too.

Few links to toys, ideas for games and info about the breed that might help.

www.discount-equestrian.co.uk/stable-and-yard/horse-toys.html

www.goldenretrieverforum.com

www.bluecross.org.uk/pet-advice/how-stop-your-dog-pulling-lead

Also link to my favourite ever greedy bastard completely throwing his handler a deaf one and just inhaling treats as he goes. Fair play fella you can't knock him for effort Grin

MissKittyBeaudelais · 03/03/2019 19:15

@Parly. Thank you so much for that epic and informative reply. I will need to read it several times before I can make my “plan”. It makes absolute sense. All of it. I’ll need to get myself to a country shop which sells lead reins though if she’s walking next to me, on the sweet short walks, can I let her wander and sniff about in the fields at lead rein length, as it were?

It’s an odd thing that if it’s just “us” at home, she will give stuff back when I say “thank you” and hold out my hand.

My head’s a bit all over the show today with it. So yes, I need to read your post a few times. I think there’s been a fair bit of training and yes, she may be confused. For instance, when the residential man handed her back to us, he was demonstrating something and he just dragged her off, her whole body weight, by the slip lead because she’d glimpsed me and wanted to come to me. He wouldn’t let her.

Thank you all. It’s lovely to have replies when you’re starting to feel a bit lost and desperate.

OP posts:
Parly · 03/03/2019 19:55

@MissKittyBeaudelais

Yeah course.

Don't read and go over this again you'll end up fried. Leave it until you have a fresher mind a new set of eyes.

In the meantime Amazon sell cheap and cheerful lead ropes and lines from a fiver upwards. A standard cheap one will do for now they just give that better grip and are sturdier and more comfortable to hold.

www.amazon.co.uk/ZILCO-Cotton-Horse-Lead-Rope/dp/B01I88WB3Y?tag=mumsnetforum-21

I often buy and use horse stuff in favour or dogs stuff they're usually cheaper, made of better stuff and you can do all sorts with a good bit of rope.

What I would do is firstly keep the lead or rope tightly in so she's right by you at first. As she stops pulling and fighting and trying to get ahead you can very gradually allow a bit more length to sniff and pee and pee and sniff but mid pee when she isn't pulling, ask her to come back to your side.

A light and friendly “Hey – here” and tap your leg so she's more or less invited / entourage back rather than called.

When she does “Yeeee good lass!" And let her have a fat treat or whatever.

Just build up from there so she starts roaming without the pulling and fighting and comes back the second you ask her to.

It's a lot simpler than it seems from the text and six hour reply I posted though don't worry!

It quickly becomes second nature for them to start coming straight when called, whistled or to a finger click.

Before you know it you'll be just slinging a lead round your neck for emergencies and giving it "Oi - o'er this way ya pillock!" Grin

Parly · 03/03/2019 19:57

Encouraged to come back sorry - not given an entourage. Fingers went off on a wander without me.

MissKittyBeaudelais · 03/03/2019 20:13

“You can do all sorts with a good bit of rope” 😁

Thanks again.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 03/03/2019 20:26

Your Goldie has you well trained op Wink

OverFedStanley · 03/03/2019 20:45

Yes absolutely do let your dog sniff - it is a great stress reliever for dogs and believe me she will need it if you follow some of Parly's advice Hmm

peoplepleaser1 · 04/03/2019 10:39

You've had some super advice already. From what you have said I feel a bit suspicious bout ten quality of training Dog received at the residential training. I k ow it was done with the best of intentions but it may have done more harm than good.

If your other commitments allow I would try to mix up the walks a little so that she doesn't actually k ow what to expect. At the moment she can safely anticipate that the morning walk is much more fun than the lunchtime one was. Maybe take her on a walk in her open countryside at lunchtime instead.

It might be interesting to try a pavement walk that leads to a countryside walk. It would be good to see how she reacts to walking along the pavements whilst knowing there is a fun field coming up.

mrsjoyfulprizeforraffiawork · 04/03/2019 13:21

Have not RTFT but I had a crossbreed from Greece that was definitely part retriever/collie/don't know what and she was exactly like this - she chose where we'd go on her walks and if I wanted to go a different route, she would stand (if she'd been two-legged, she would have had her arms crossed) and glower at me while we debated the point and she was, of course, too heavy to force if she didn't want to go somewhere. She was also very given (after middle age) to having a little lie down on the pavement for a bit of a rest mid-walk(flat out on her side) - concerned passers-by often stopped to offer to call a vet. I read online that this type of crossbreed is very opinionated and if you can get them to do what you want 60% of the time, you are doing very well indeed so I didn't feel so bad. We did come to an understanding but she would not always do things my way. She was also OUTRAGED if someone altered the landscape or put up Christmas decorations outside their house, etc

MissKittyBeaudelais · 04/03/2019 19:13

@MrsJoy! That’s exactly what she’s like. I’m sorry now that she’s had so many different training programmes. We’ve learned something different at each of them. I’m confused so she must be too!

We walked along the pavement today TO the field @People 😊. So, big fun at the end of it. There are two routes we can take to it and I try to alternate or vary. Sometimes I drive. Anyway...today she walked along quite happily. Then, all of a sudden she stopped and wanted to cross over to the other side of the road. She has done this twice before. So, we crossed and she walked the length of two houses then wanted to cross back over. I refused. She planted herself on the pavement and I was in no mood for dragging her so had to give in and cross. We then continued to the field. She did the same thing on the way back. SHE’S OFF HER ROCKER!

OP posts:
RandomMess · 04/03/2019 19:36

Have you previously given her treats at that spot or her scavenged food off the pavement outside those 2 houses?

Would be interesting to borrow a biddable dog that you fed treats to or praised loads for good behaviour and see how long it took her to realise doing as she was asked was worth it...

MissKittyBeaudelais · 05/03/2019 11:14

No. Her deciding to cross BEFORE the two houses was sudden onset and “fear” in that, she stopped, went low to the ground, wouldn’t progress and was hunkered as we crossed the road. I don’t like to walk on the other side of the road at that point because it’s a small stretch without pavement. Then when she’d passed the houses, she was happy and wanted to resume her walk ON THE OTHER SIDE 😐 It happened again today, as we came home that way. My friend joked ‘perhaps there’s a body under the patio’. Anyway, whatever it is, she IS NOT happy. We’ve been walking that route 3/4 times a week, for 3 years 😐

OP posts:
RandomMess · 05/03/2019 11:19

Dogs are BONKERS!

steppemum · 05/03/2019 11:42

I would try this -
she stops and hankers down and wants to cross the road. Turn round, go back a few steps (quite a few) until she is relaxed. Get her to sit next to you, talk to her reassure her and then try again, this time as soon as you start walking hold a treat in front of her and encourage her to keep going. Reward her for walking forwards.

Every time she stops, turn round, go back far enough to where she was happy (or a bit further) reassure her and try again, with an encouragement treat in your hand.

The one thing I would not do, is give in and cross the road at the point she insists. If necessary, I would go back the way we have come and do a different walk.
Or, at worst, go back, try again, and when she is walking nicely YOU choose to cross the road.

steppemum · 05/03/2019 11:46

The blue cross link about how to stop your dog pulling on the lead is how I taught my dog.
He is a rescue and dragged us down the street, humping along in his eagerness to go on a walk.
I did the stop and wait thing with him.
He got the concept pretty quickly but it took me 4 solid months of training every single day before we had relaly cracked it, and he still pulls in a new place, or when he is over excited.
It's just that now he knows he shouldn't do it! (and so is easier to stop)

MissKittyBeaudelais · 05/03/2019 12:47

—Whispers in small bewildered voice— “Okay”

OP posts:
steppemum · 05/03/2019 12:56

Oh MissKitty, don;t feel overwhelmed, think of it as new start. Wait till you have some time to get your head round it, and make a plan. Then stick to the plan.

It won;t make any difference if you start today or next week, but in the long term getting to grips with it will make your life and the dogs easier.

averylongtimeago · 05/03/2019 15:33

Parly has excellent advice OP, it sounds like a lot to think about but once you start it will be easier.

You have a clever dog there, who seems to have got you just where she wants you.

I love Goldies and yes they are greedy bastards and have owned them for the last 40 years. Some are cleverer than others, some lazy, some loved training.
I have done some (basic) agility with our current girl, it's fun even if we usually get it wrong!

Here are oldie Goldie and the pup - just because.

From bad to worse
MissKittyBeaudelais · 05/03/2019 20:07

@averylong.... they’re both gorgeous! Butter wouldn’t melt! Yes, it does seem to me, after all this time, that she’ll just always be in charge of me.

I’ve already ordered a horse lead rope. Her food is being given via the Kong in the morning and her evening meal in a slow feeder (which she seems to make alarmingly short work of!). Two people told me today “he’s a big lad isn’t he?” and we’re shocked that she is in fact a girl. Her walks are now “short and sweet” involving some play, basic training and swimming. I have to let her off lead to dip in and out of the river because, it’s her “thing”. She simply cannot help herself!

We’ve done some “go find” which she loves. I’ve just settled down to write this and as soon as my backside touch the chair....in she came. She DOES follow me everywhere so, at least I know she has SOME feeling toward me. I do wonder!

OP posts:
MissKittyBeaudelais · 05/03/2019 20:10

Also got a new treat dispenser ball and one of those Licky Mats to amuse her.

OP posts:
MissKittyBeaudelais · 04/04/2019 14:17

Updating....

It’s all going very well. We’ve redesigned our walking day. Shorter walks. Less “free play” with other dogs in the pack. More training built into every walk with some very positive reinforcement before we come home. I bought a Liki-Mat which she loves and use her Kong quite a bit. If she’s “naughty” and won’t come back, when I catch up with her I just gently put her on her lead and off we go. When she’s watching me again and walking well (no pulling) I let her off and immediately engage her in ball/training. In other words, no more time for me nattering and her getting in to mischief.

Am very pleased and do trust her more now. Thanks for your help.

OP posts:
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