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If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Owners of King Charles spaniels- advice please

48 replies

BuildingQuote · 13/01/2019 19:20

Please could you tell me your experience of this breed ?
Those I have met have been simply delightful and I am just nervous from research that even from a good breeder do most end up with health problems? I knew a wonderful older King Charles who was on heart medication but had the waggiest tail still so I would love your experiences and also whether they are happy if just a single dog? If dogs prefer canine companions I think we may be better to hold off.

And if we did look into it further is the Kennel Club or a breed specific rescue the best place?
Thank you so much

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Doggydoggydoggy · 14/01/2019 15:16

It is interesting seeing different opinions as I thought the opposite!

There are photographs of dogs they have bred, most looking a lot more like cavaliers than Cavapoos and photographs of litters in the blog bit.

They state they do all the health tests advised for both breeds and are up to date with BVA research and guidelines.

I thought they made really good reasons for outcrossing and at the end of each page they have contact details to ask them questions.

Perhaps if asked they would disclose all the tests they have done and the results and provide photographs of how previous dogs turned out?

Doggydoggydoggy · 14/01/2019 15:18

Maybe one of us should pose as a buyer and see what they say...

Ask about tests, results, why those two breeds, what happens if it doesn’t work out/will you take puppy back etc and see what they say.

Their responses would be telling.

MattMagnolia · 15/01/2019 14:20

Cavalier crossbreeds or pure breds from health tested parents can never be guaranteed not to have the inherited problems of Cavaliers.
Super little dogs which were ruined by popularity and indiscriminate breeding.

FlamingGoat · 15/01/2019 14:24

I have 4 Cavs. They range from 5-10 . The oldest has a mild heart murmur which is controlled by Vetmedin. Absolutely wonderful dogs.

Wolfiefan · 15/01/2019 14:26

If you click on the litters for sale it specifically mentions Cavapoos.
Any breeder with an website like that would put me right off. Clearly commercial breeders at best and puppy farmers at worst.

fleshmarketclose · 15/01/2019 14:37

PILs had two an ex Crufts champion and a pup that he'd sired (payment for stud I think) They were lovely dogs, gentle and even tempered and they seemed to avoid the common ill health dying aged 11 and 10. They shed so much hair though it seemed incredible that they could lose so much so I would never want one but for temperament I think you would be hard pressed to find better.

Myranium · 15/01/2019 19:56

I'm not sure what you think screams commercial breeder/puppy farmer Wolfiefan but I'm just not seeing it.

The only mention of cavapoos on their 'Litters' page I can see is where it says they're not breeding any for the foreseeable future.

I can see anything that suggests they breed constantly, or even particularly frequently. They go above and beyond in term of health tests, including following the recommended MVD and CM/SM breeding protocols. They have a clear long term goal they're working towards and have logic behind the breeds they've chosen to use. Their puppy contract asks new owners to contact the breeder rather than rehoming themselves. They regularly post on their blog about dogs they've bred (clearly keeping in touch with new owners) and do "litter reviews" where they evaluate how successful the breeding was and what it means for their breeding programme. They even take some of the dogs they've bred beating with a local shoot!

I'm totally happy to be corrected if I've missed something on the site which suggests they're in it for the money (I don't see how they possibly could be with the amount of MRIs they're paying for...) or are dodgy in some other way and I appreciate there's a lot of variance in what different people consider to be responsible breeding.

The situation with the CKCS is critical. If more people don't start doing outcross programmes then nothing is going to improve, on the contrary it will continue to get worse. Very nearly 100% of them have a heart murmur by the age of ten. A dog with a heart murmur, even if they never become symptomatic, is not healthy. When MRI'd 25% show CM/SM at the age of one, that number rises to 70% by the age of six and the proportion of dogs likely continues to get higher as the age increases. Again, not all these dogs become symptomatic but that does not mean they're healthy.

It's just not possible to reliably breed healthy dogs from a population that is almost universally affected (even if only to a minor degree) by a particular condition. Nor is it possible to reliably breed healthy dogs when the shape they're being bred into dramatically increases the chance of suffering health issues. The prevalence of CM/SM in the CKCS is directly linked to the shape of the skull and there just aren't enough moderate dogs to improve things.

This situation isn't unique to the CKCS either and we'll see more and more breeds suffering from higher and higher rates of health issues if things carry on as they are. Loss of genetic diversity is inevitable in closed populations, breeding being restricted to only a relatively small number of individuals each generation only increases the speed at which genetic diversity is lost.

The current system is not sustainable and, without moving away from current outdated and unscientific breeding practises, all breeds will eventually end up like the CKCS or the Dobermann.

Wolfiefan · 15/01/2019 20:07

The title of the website says “cavalierpoos”. So Cavapoos. They aren’t trying to improve the cavalier breed. They’re churning out trendy cross breeds for profit.
Avoid.

Myranium · 15/01/2019 20:32

They’re churning out trendy cross breeds for profit.

I'd ask for evidence beyond the name of the website and the fact they've previously bred some CKCS x miniature poodle litters but I don't think you're interested in exploring it any further.

For anyone who is actually interested in the future of pedigree breeds I can highly recommend the FB group Outcross for Life (there has been some discussion on this particular programme there, including some correspondence from the breeder themselves) and the Institute of Canine Biology, particularly their blog.

Wolfiefan · 15/01/2019 20:37

They are a Cavapoo breeder.
They also breed some cavalier mixes. That aren’t cavaliers but cavapoo with a bit of Brittany mixed in.
They don’t breed cavaliers at all.

Doggydoggydoggy · 15/01/2019 21:05

Again, I would urge anyone who feels they are commercial/puppy farmers to contact them and ask the relevant questions.

Like ‘myranium* I just don’t see it and really, we desperately need more outcrossing!

It is really unfortunate that the majority of crossbred breeders are not doing it out of love of dogs and concern for their welfare.

OdeToDiazepam · 15/01/2019 21:06

Ours (childhood dog) went on for years but had awful health problems. Hearing, sight both went. Hernia, heart problems and the rest of it, regular vet trips and medication

That said he was the best dog ever for us kids!

Boom76 · 15/01/2019 21:15

Mine is 8 with no health issues. Fantastic dogs if you have kids

Doggydoggydoggy · 15/01/2019 21:34

I think most dog owners who happen to also have children could say that tbh boom

cafesociety · 19/01/2019 17:02

I know of 2 CKCS's in my area and both around 10 years old with no health problems, lovely healthy dogs. But around here is a breeder who shows her dogs, breeds carefully and has done for decades now.

Chocolatedeficitdisorder · 21/01/2019 18:17

I'm a wee bit confused by the OP. Are you asking about King Charles Spaniels or Cavalier King Charles Spaniels? They're different breeds with different facial features.

cafesociety · 21/01/2019 19:34

Many people aren't aware there is a King Charles Spaniel, they are very rarely seen. Google them and pics and info about the Cavalier come up 98% of the time.
However they are also known commonly as English Toy Spaniels which will bring pics and info up. Very confusing.

King Charles Spaniels are the ones which were often seen as the ceramic figures, in pairs and usually on either side of mantelpieces in past years... and now seen commonly in antique shops.

[For anyone interested].

BuildingQuote · 21/01/2019 19:52

Sorry Chocolate- I was originally looking into King Charles Spaniels and quickly realised how ignorant I was and learnt the difference. I realised the dogs I’d looked after were in fact cavaliers .
This has been a helpful thread and thank you all again

OP posts:
Chocolatedeficitdisorder · 21/01/2019 22:07

That's ok OP, KCs are rare these days. I used to know someone who had a pair in the 70s, and they were very pleasant dogs but very fat, grunty and low energy. Healthy, carefully-bred Cavs are in much better shape.

Chocolatedeficitdisorder · 21/01/2019 22:10

This isn't them, but it really could have been.

Owners of King Charles spaniels- advice please
Olikingcharles · 27/01/2019 01:10

I have one sweetest, loving boy.
Had him from a pup he's just over 10 years old and no health problems at all. Would have another in a heartbeat. Might add I got him from a family who had both mum and dad as pets not show dogs or official breeders.

Owners of King Charles spaniels- advice please
BuildingQuote · 27/01/2019 01:42

Oh he looks adorable! I feel so excited to be getting a cavalier and reassured that choosing one carefully can make a difference.
Our house is already looking rather busy with dogs beds and leads and dog bowls and it is feeling hard to wait..

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Olikingcharles · 27/01/2019 05:17

Will just add our Oli is a single dog and has always been so. He is happy just to be around his people. To be fair he just loves all people (more so if they have some sort of food on offer). I'm sure a Cav will make a fabulous addition to your family. :)

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