Grade IV heart murmur in new puppy

[Alaaya]

Hi

I posted before in a sleep dep'd haze and everyone was lovely and helpful and things have got better but sadly another issue has come up and I am posting for more advice.

We picked up our OES pup last week at 10 weeks old from a KC registered breeder. She seemed lovely - home environment, pups clearly well socialised, no concerns. She said when we picked him up that her vet had picked up a minor innocent heart murmur but his dad had had the same and that had cleared up.

I took him to the vet today and was told that it looks more serious - our vet thinks a grade IV heart murmur and recommended a scan at the hospital as it may be indicative of something more serious. She also did say that as it's a pre existing condition it wouldn't be covered by our pet insurance and the scan alone would be £500 plus. We don't have thousands of pounds available for a puppy. We did get pet insurance as soon as we picked him up but that has a two week bedding in period which we're not out of.

I have talked to the breeder who has been a bit odd - she started off claiming it was fine, and then rapidly switched to insisting that she didn't want to sell us a sick pup and would come and collect him today and give us a full refund. Totally opposed to us keeping him and her helping with any bills or even waiting for another week for his follow up scan and wants to refund and collect ASAP.

DH thinks she wants to resell him while he is still a puppy. He also thinks from her tone that she knew he was sick. He is quiet for a puppy, and has been unwilling to eat, and is slightly thin according to the vet so I could believe he's poorly but he's also smart and affectionate and I love him to bits. I don't want to let him go but this situation is really concerning me.

What do I do? Any advice?

The breeder should have let you know about the heart murmur BEFORE you picked him up. Then you could have made an objective decision.

And this is why you should get your puppy vet checked yourself AS SOON as you have him home-before you get too attached

Yup. Agreed. We should have been at the vets within 24 hours. I concur.

It I'm really sorry you're in this shitty position 

Aw OP my heart breaks for you :( what a difficult decision. Sometimes you just have to put your faith in people and if the breeder does what she says she'll do, that's the best thing for the wee lad.

What a difficult dilemma OP. My dog has a heart murmur with a diagnosis of dilated cardiomyopathy. He is on quite expensive daily medication plus supplements and has to have a heart ultrasound every six months (plus he had to have blood and urine tests before and after we started him on medication). He is an adult dog and the murmur is recent so not a congenital issue. We've been told that the drugs should slow down the rate at which his heart is being damaged, his prognosis is currently perhaps a year without symptoms and then maybe a year until the symptoms cause him distress when he may need to be put down. Hopefully with a puppy it's different, but I'd be be asking for a prognosis as well as an idea about the cost of treatment

My cat needs heart scans every 6 months. Obv it may be different for a dog but we don't pay anything near £500. More like £120ish. You said you'd have to go to a hospital for a scan, Think i'd try another vet first, one that does scans in house.

Good luck xx

No one can really diagnose a heart murmur accurately by listening to it. There are some other factors, e.g. age of onset, response to exercise, etc. which may help point to a diagnosis but you need an ultrasound to know what is happening.

I’ve had a dog diagnosed with a mitral valve defect at 8 years old. She had a lot of expensive medicines daily and a twice yearly check ups, but she lived another 7 years with the issue. She passed away at 15yo which is a good age for any dog, never mind one wi

SOrry, iPad playing up

One with serious heart problems.

Can you afford his initial diagnosis costs? Will the breeder split these with you as a good will gesture? Then you will know what is going on and what future treatment may involve.

Part of my day job. Heart murmurs are often subjective. One vet will say its a two and another a four. Having said that if he is thin as a result (has the vet said this?) then it's at the more serious end of the scale.
In your shoes I would do nothing for now. I would keep the pup and suck up that I've spent the money. I would wait it out providing the pup is asymptomatic. I have had a pup as you describe and he had a murmur his entire life with various vets giving it different classification. I put him to sleep at the age of 14years and 2 months as a result of an unrelated condition. He never thrived in that he was always thin. He had a happy active life though.

Providing you can unemotionally assess that he is not suffering. Wait and see. My reasoning is that once he goes back to the breeder he will be re-sold or more likely PTS.

Yeah, he is thin and also gets tired and a lot of people have commented on how quiet and chilled out he is for a puppy. He doesn't eat much although we have tried to feed him up.

Second vet also says grade IV, as we wanted a second opinion.

This unfortunately comes down to money. If you keep the puppy and can't afford the ongoing cost of any vetcare that he may need you need to return him.

I can understand the breeder wanting the puppy back rather than paying for the initial investigation and him staying with you as I would want to be in full control of what I authorise regarding investigations etc.

Thin and tired are not good signs, I am sorry OP.
Wait and see is not an option if he has symptoms. He needs to be diagnosed and then a decision has to be made for his future. If you decide you either can not afford his treatment or cannot deal with the emotional implications of dealing with a seriously sick dog I think it would be best to take up the breeder on her offer.

Unfortunately this is the darker side of pedigree breeding that no one likes to speak about... due to the sheer amount of inbreeding between genetic lines cardiac problems (amongst others) are common place.

You've already said that you cannot afford to self fund large vet bills and the condition isn't covered by insurance. The breeder is willing to take the puppy back and I think that's probably the best option.

My mum bought a Tibetan terrier from a reputable breeder and she has very severe hip dysplasia, a common problem with that breed due to inbreeding to get the desired physical look 🙁

fruitcider that is just complete rubbish. Decent breeders will health screen the parents before breeding from them. Hip and elbow dysplasia are a prime example, take GSDs for example where widespread screening has reduced the number of affected dogs. Eye tests, haemophelia tests and genetic tests for known conditions are all requirements for breeds affected and breeders cannot register the puppies unless the parents have been screened.

An awful lot of breeders cut corners left right and centre. I know a reputable breeder that is breeding pedigree dogs and all of them carry the gene for PPL. She doesn't give a rap and she shows at Crufts.

Primary Lens Luxation - sorry!

Unfortunately this is the darker side of pedigree breeding that no one likes to speak about... due to the sheer amount of inbreeding between genetic lines cardiac problems (amongst others) are common place.

In some breeds that seems to be true, but doesn't apply to all breeders.

I think I've seen one healthy looking Cavalier in the last five years, and none of them bear much resemblance to the KC Cavalier we had as a family 30 years ago - the breed is now far smaller, less robust, and heart problems seem to be built in. The victim of market-driven cutification.

fruitcider that is just complete rubbish. Decent breeders will health screen the parents before breeding from them. Hip and elbow dysplasia are a prime exam

You can health screen the parents but unless genetic analysis is carried out on each breeding dog you still could end up with a breeding pair both of which carry a passive gene.

fruitcider I don’t understand your point. Health screening can and does include genetic tests. Some tests are not fully adopted by all breeders, some are difficult to adopt as excluding carrier dogs would significantly limit the gene pool, and so on but genetic tests are included in health screening. You have to research your breed, the conditions that affect it, the tests available and make your choices.

Have you tried to feed your pup other foods? Like roast chicken? My puppy was on the thin side and hardly ate her kibble so we would offer her some roast chicken which she would love! She has fattened up in no time and now she eats her kibble. The vet also commented she was too thin. Now she is on the heavier side of normal range. So it could be puppy not liking her food for reason of being too thin. However, with two vets saying it’s a grade four heart murmur, I think your only option really is to return him to the breeder. I would have never taken the dog home knowing it had a heart murmur.

Whilst most grades of heart murmur are subjective, grade 4 means there's a palpable thrill ie you can feel the turbulence of you put your hand on him so that is more subjective. On the plus side the Louder the murmur generally the smaller the hole so potentially less significant.

Were you able to get a diagnosis OP? How is the little puppy doing?

Pup very very sadly had to go back to the breeder. We paid for a scan but the diagnosis suggested a lot of money would need to be spent. It was, and is, devastating. But we couldn't find another way. Very very sad.

Heartbreaking for you but sounds like the correct decision.