Help me! Puppy night time separation anxiety and poo in crate!

[Robomom]

I haven’t had a puppy for a while and we have a 12 week old cockapoo and she is very sweet. During the day she sleeps a lot curled up next to my 11 year old it’s her puppy. Toilet training going really well in the day and we are all proactive with that. We are not using puppy pads.
Night is a different story as she has major separation anxiety.
We take her out for the toilet around 11pm then crate her.
We are using an extra small crate at night in the kitchen with the door closed and lights off. The crate has a cover on top and three sides are surrounded by walls and kitchen cupboards. I put her toys in there and her blanket and I encourage her inside with a kong and peanut butter as she won’t go in the alone.
She cries and howls for around 20 minutes to 1 hour before she self settles.
She wakes and cries/howls upto two times in the night then I get up and take her outside for the toilet at those times.
Then she wakes up for the day between 5-6am.
Last night (night 8) she pooped in her crate. Yuk! Not a nice wake up.

What am I doing wrong?
How long should it take to crate train?
How long will she take to settle with the crate?
Is it possible she will never get used to the crate?
Why a mucky protest on night 8?
Should I give up with the crate and let her sleep in my daughters bed?
My daughter would love that but I’m worried she will fell off the bed or toilet on the bedroom carpet.

Please help the sleep deprivation is hard!

And I also wouldn't go to the pup when crying... it just reinforces that if they kick up enough fuss they'll get your attention. As soon as they realise you're not coming, they'll settle to sleep.

If you start going down at every cry, you'll make a rod for your own back

You really should not be ignoring a crying puppy. She is just a baby and will be missing her mum, her siblings and the home she was born in.

I hate it when people say just ignore them. Most people don't ignore crying babies so why puppies?

When we got our puppy at 9 weeks me and DH took it in turns to sleep downstairs with puppy in crate next to the settee. We didn't want him to sleep in our bedroom but if we had we would have put the crate there.

If puppy cried in the night we would speak softly to him and stroke him through the crate. Most times he went back to sleep. If not we took him in the garden to see if he needed to toilet.

Gradually we moved the crate away from the settee. It took just over 2 weeks before he was settled in the night. We still had to occasionally get up to him and we got us up early most mornings but we are pretty early risers so we didn't mind.

We were lucky in that our puppy was used to crates as his breeder uses them. We still took time during the days to get him to like his crate. He loves it so much now that even though he is 6 we still have a crate in our living room.

You can't just put a young puppy in a crate every night, close the door and go to bed and anyone who says you can doesn't know much about dogs. You are setting yourselves up for far more problems in the future

Astrokate, leave a puppy to cry! That will just make her distressed.

OP, please don't go down the route of ignoring a crying puppy. They're babies and they've gone from being with their mum/littermates at night, to being in a crate in a strange house with strange smells and sounds, and for some reason we expect them to just deal with it and sleep happily in this strange new environment.

He needs comfort and reassurance that he's not been completely abandoned. And he'll need regular breaks to the toilet - at that age probably 2/3 times a night as he won't be able to hold it much longer than three hours or so. If he wakes in the night, take him to the toilet. If he goes, great, if not, straight back to bed. He'll soon get the message that night time is for sleeping, not play, but he needs someone to teach him that.

I've never understood people who get puppies and think they can shove them in a crate from day one and they'll be fine. They need to be taught the right way to behave at night and that won't happen if you're asleep in another room ignoring them.

Just a thought. When we got our golden retriever as a puppy we also had these issues at night time. One of the things in his crate was a piece of blanket that came from the breeders and 'smelt' like mum and his other siblings. The idea was to comfort him but it turned out that it actually aggravated him and made him restless (as i guess he was confused that he could 'smell' but not 'see' his family). Maybe remove anything that smells of his mum/siblings?

I just believe some dogs don’t take to crate training.

My collie was fine, took to it no problems and you would find her in with the door open.

My cocker, just would not take. No matter what I did she cried. We gave up and had a much happier pup, yes we had to make do a few things but i do now believe dog training isn’t a one fits all approach.

I totally agree with @TweedAddict on one size does not fit all.

Clearly my options about crying pup aren't popular and to be clear, I absolutely agree that you can't leave a pup all night in a crate...they need to be settled down and absolutely taken out at lease twice in the night (as per my previous post). The point I was obviously poorly trying to make was, don't get up with ever whimper or you'll be up all night. Make sure they'll settled and ensure they get a couple of visits.

If he's settling after twenty minutes then that's great!

Like Tweed, I've had dogs most of my life who took to crate training after a couple of weeks and had a few whimpers for that time but nothing dramatic...and went on to love their crates.

However, Monty didn't and we saw clear signs of separation anxiety. This is different from lonely pup syndrome and he would salivate excessively, bite the cage and ended up throwing himself against it. After two nights we binned it! We since found out that at 3 weeks a metal gate feel on him and although missed him, scared the crap out of him! He has a proper phobia of metal 'clanging' and still does to this day! That was the cause of the anxiety in the crate.

@Robomom you need to find what works for your family and your beautiful pup (and we still need photos btw). The main thing is to give yourself a break-you're doing great and these teething problems and sleep deprivation are totally normal!

Good luck! X

I did the whole crate in bedroom, fingers though the bars, using the crate 15mins a time during the day. She really didn’t like it. I got her a covered cat bed with a flap in the end with she loved until she chewed it. She now sleeps in her bed in the bedroom, my other 2 dogs have their own sofa in the utility room even with the doors open they all go in the their spots.

Ours didn't take to crate training either and sleeps on our bed at seven months old. We still have his crate set up but he's never liked going in it, even with treats and lots of praise/reassurance.

But not crate training isn't the same as letting your pup cry at night and ignoring them.

How long are you planning on leaving your pup in the crate when you go back to work?
I am not a great fan of crates as I think they are often used wrongly. Shutting a puppy in a crate and leaving it to cry isn't crate training.
Mine had a crate, which she often used to sleep in out of choice, with the door open, but I have put it away now and simply shut her in the kitchen if we are going out. In fact, even when quite small I preferred that, (shutting her in the kitchen) as at least she had space to run around and play. The floor was easily cleaned up if there were any accidents.
Crates are a relatively recent dog accessory. When I was young no one would dream of shutting a dog in the equivalent of a rabbit hutch.

RB68 - thank you - it actually just helps to hear that other people struggled too but got there! I know we will get there too and we are trying our best to find what will work! Just hit a wall today so all positive encourage is much appreciated 😍

My puppy is 12 weeks old today and has been with us nearly 3 weeks. We started with a small crate (he’s a whippet) and he didn’t really like it. He now has a large (pets at home large so suitable for collie/lab etc) crate and he is much better. We started by just throwing treats in during the day for him to find and feeding all meals in there so he associated it with nice things. It has a king size quilt in, some pillows and fleece blankets. We took turns to sleep on the sofa while he was in the crate initially with him waking 2/3 times a night for the loo. We sat by the crate and reassured him if he continued to cry after he had been out until he fell asleep then went back to the sofa (he can see us from crate) He now sleeps from 7pm on the sofa and takes himself off to his crate around 9pm. We take him out before bed around 10.30pm and he sleeps until 6/7am. He has slept through the night since we bought him the adaptil puppy collar. May just be coincidence but I would give it a go. They also do a plug in diffuser which I haven’t tried and we also use pet remedy spray which I spray on his bedding every night. This also seems to calm him. I initially felt sleep deprived and that it would never get better but it does!

We have tried to make the crate a nice place and encourage her putting treats in the crate in the day and giving her praise for going in and not locking in the door. She still doesn’t like going in! I had the fluffy vet bed in there but she was chewing that so I removed it. I’m wondering if we have just got the puppy who doesn’t like crates as the breeder told me the siblings settled well with crates in their new homes.

To be clear I have not left her to cry all night and have gone in every 3 hours to let her outside to the toilet. There have been lots of strong and different opinions and I guess we will have to decide how to proceed.

For people who did persist with crates at night - how long did it take your pups to settle themselves and not cry when you first put them in initially?
And how long did it take for them to get used to get crate without crying at all?

Generally speaking by what age did your puppy manage to go through the night without needing the toilet?

Once she is toilet trained and stopped chewing I am planning to ditch the crate anyway! We are in a rental house with full carpets so trying not to trash the house by using a crate at night! She is awesome in the day and doing so well with toilet training and is the sweetest little pup but the sleep deprivation definitely hurts!!

Argh ok. They are a worry aren't they?
Hope you manage to get her sorted.
Would leaving the radio help? Our 'baby'-(now 6 years old!) has radio 2 (her choice!) on whenever we leave her as she has separation anxiety still! She is ok with the radio though!

“She still doesn’t like going in!”

Then you shouldn’t be shutting her in yet... if she’s not yet happy going in it then she’s not ready for moving on to the next bit of training, otherwise all you’re doing is undoing any progress you’ve made during the day by shutting her in at night.

We never crated and ours slept on our bed with us from night one. He started sleeping through reliably about a week ago, so at around 7 months old. However I wouldn't leave a young puppy unsupervised or uncrated even if they are fully toilet trained. Most will chew well beyond their first year (or forever depending on the breed) so if you're planning to ditch the crate you need to be able to puppy-proof a space for her to sleep, play and eat while you're out/asleep.

There was a poster on here a while ago (I think at least a year or more) who left her six month old puppy uncrated and came home to find the dog had eaten the sofa!

We had exactly the same problem. For one night each put the crate in the middle of your bedroom, then by the door, then in the doorway, then on the landing with door open, then with door closed then further away but still upstairs. Keep upstairs for a week or so and then start at the bottom of the stairs and work back night by night into your desired spot. Always cover the crate in full and get a bigger one so pup can walk about to get comfy if needs be. We put a bed and blanket but no toys as it's not playtime. Give a very small amount of dry kibble hidden under bedding to encourage pup not to poo in there, and stop using the kong at bedtime, especially filled with high energy food. It should take about 2 weeks to crack. We never went to her if she made noise at night as we wanted to train her to wait until morning to toilet. We do now though as it would mean she was desperate for a poo which happens about once every 3 months. She now sleeps anywhere we leave her in the crate and will take herself off to bed when tired.

Hi - I'm a Cockapoo owner (6 months) we had same thing. Poo in the crate and crying. This is what we did.
Put the crate into a utility room with crate door left open. We have a stair gate over the utlity room door so pup can see out. We put a puppy pad on the floor away from then crate. Access to drinking water.
11pm - last outdoor wees.
6am - first wees.
We ignored the cries and did NOT ago in. Left the radio on low volume. Left a smelly jumper. Left a puppy heart beat toy with her (Amazon) and a squirt of Adaptil calmer spray. We went to bed safe in the knowledge that she's clean, safe but albeit out of sorts with the lack of companionship.
She stopped using the pads after about 4 weeks. The breakthrough on this giving thr final feed no later than 5pm to allow plenty of time to empty her bowels before bed.
At 6 months now, she's very happy - last wee is 10pm to 7am, so we really Can't complain at all. I hope this info helps OP!!!

Bloody well hate crates/cages. I know that they are currently a 'thing' but hope to god that they fall out of favour.
People have no idea how to use them kindly and think that shutting a tiny pup in a crate is crate training.
Don't get me started on the idiots who go our to work and leave their poor dog in a fucking cage for hours on end.

My pup chewed through a wall when I left her for long enough to pee. Mains cables run just through the other side.
I crate but I slept next to the crate to start with. Shes now in a whelping pen. You can add panels to make it bigger. She sleeps there overnight and if we have to leave her for more than an hour or so. It's her quiet place. Keeps her safe and stops the evil kitties tormenting her too!

These can help some puppies to settle. The heartbeat is soothing to some - not all though

here

My dog loves his crate. He is a big dog so has a big crate which takes up quite a lot of room in my living room. I fully intended getting rid of it when he was a year old, if not before. He is 6 now

He chooses to sleep in it a lot of the time. He obviously sees it as his safe place because if there are fireworks, which he is not happy about, he goes in his bed and then is fine.

We did try taking it away but he kept going to where it was and crying.

We found a smelly shoe really settled our Cockapoo pup!

@ROBOMOM......First I applaud the effort u r taking for making your puppy comfortable and as you said all things u did are correct and nothing wrong in it but just needs little adjusting here and there and the issues u facing all the owner have face so nothing to worry.
Your puppy is very small so go slow with training and don't load him with lots of training.
Potty training he will learn I am sure but u need him to associate it with good memories like every time u go out with him and he potty or pee outside reward him with something he loves most so he will remember every time whenever it's potty or pee he has to go outside so he can be rewarded.
See another thing crate your puppy is not important
If your puppy is uncomfortable than don't put him in crate specially at night until he himself gets adjusted to crate
Might be crate is covered and he feels is lonely inside and scare but u can keep him near his older dog just to make him comfortable
Firstly don't crate him for long spans
Do it for 15 mins than as he is comfortable keep increasing time span
If he secussfully stays inside for 15 mind than give him break let him out and reward him it will make him feel good.
3 months puppy can't hold pee and potty for long time I guess after every three hours they need to be taken out.
Before u sleep taking him out like I slept at 12.30 but I took him at evening 6 night 9 and before I go to bed 12.30.

Another thing u could do before u put him to bed play with him for sometime and work him out so he will be tired by time it's going to bed and quietly sleep in bed it worked for me

Give him sometime he will adjust fine
And you too don't take tension you are doing great