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If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Original poster

Hip scores in English Springer Spaniel

22 replies

HPandBaconSandwiches · 22/07/2018 22:15

Hi
We’re looking at an English Springer spaniel pup. Hip scores for parents are “excellent” for the dad and “fair” for the mother. (Not in uk so not a numerical score). Does anyone know if that’s reasonable?
Pups look very healthy and DNA checks etc done, reputable breeder just brushed over this a bit and I felt a bit unsure.
Thanks

OP posts:
WillowDogs · 22/07/2018 22:24

To my knowledge hip scores are always a number. Even in other countries. Can you ask for a copy of the hip scores to check for yourself. Or can you find out who the vet is and ring them?

Wolfiefan · 22/07/2018 22:26

How do you know the breeder is reputable? Did you go through the breed club? Have you a vet you could ask? Fair isn't great is it? Not sure why they would breed from this bitch.

Original poster
HPandBaconSandwiches · 22/07/2018 23:16

Thanks all. I’ll ask to see the paperwork.
Breeder is president of our state ESS association so thought would be OK. Has been breeding for 20+ years, though only once every few years.
I had the same concern though, why would they breed from her? She’s a carrier for PRA too but appreciate that’s ok to breed. She breeds to show and my concern is whether looks are playing too big a component.
Will have to have a more frank chat.
Thank you

OP posts:
WillowDogs · 23/07/2018 00:29

Just because they have been breeding for 20+ years doesn't mean that they are a good breeder. Breeding to show can be a problem, as it doesn't always breed for health. A carrier for PRA still gives the puppies a risk of having it. I would question why you would breed knowing that. Honestly if it was me then I think I would begin looking for an alternative breeder.

Original poster
HPandBaconSandwiches · 23/07/2018 00:57

Thanks Wilow I thought that a carrier for PRA could only pass on being a carrier to the pup? THat they couldn’t actually develop the disease? Is that wrong?

OP posts:
Lonecatwithkitten · 23/07/2018 06:50

The PRA status of the puppies depends on both Mum and dad if they are both carriers the pups can be affected. If one parent is a carrier and one a homozygous unaffected the pups maybe unaffected or carriers.

Original poster
HPandBaconSandwiches · 23/07/2018 07:21

Thanks Lonecat, that was what I thought. Just wondered if there was some odd genetic variant.

OP posts:
SpanielsAreNuts · 23/07/2018 07:47

I would ask why they chose to breed from that bitch. One parent being a carrier for a genetic issue can be acceptable, if they chose those dogs for a particular reason.

For example my cocker's sire was a carrier but was chosen because of his good conformation, the incredibly low inbreeding coefficient the resulting puppies would have, his incredibly low hip scores and fabulous temperament.

With regards to hip scores I don't know about the scoring method used where you are but in the UK you can get breed averages to compare with - can you get that where you are.

WillowDogs · 23/07/2018 09:08

Sorry Lonecat explained it better than me. Obviously if only one is a carrier then your puppy should not be affected. I think Spaniels has made some good points. I would still be concerned if you feel like you're being fobbed off with the hip scores. One person's definition of 'fair' could be different to another but numbers are numbers.

missbattenburg · 23/07/2018 10:11

OP, depending on where you are, you may find this useful as it gives a comparison table between different schemes:

www.bva.co.uk/uploadedFiles/Content/Canine_Health_Schemes/chs-comparison-of-hd-schemes.pdf

On this, 'fair' is the same as a UK 4-6 score - well below the springer mean of 10. As the father has an even better rating, I don't think I'd have worries about this pairing with regards to hips.

The PRA aspect has been discussed above and so long as the breeder has a good reason for choosing this carrier to breed (the conformation example above is a good one) then this wouldn't worry me either.

missbattenburg · 23/07/2018 10:15

Forgot to add, the mean averages correspond to the UK so you would still have to look them up where you are. Plus, the fact that 'fair' is the same as a UK 4-6 only applies if the breeder is following this specific scheme. If they'e just made 'fair' up or used some bonkers scheme to test then I would be much more sceptical.

Original poster
HPandBaconSandwiches · 23/07/2018 10:59

That’s so helpful everyone, thank you. Will let you know how we go.

OP posts:
Ylvamoon · 23/07/2018 23:23

Hi OP to read the hip score correctly, you will need the numbers. It's not just about how close they are to the breed average but also how even the hip is. For example a dog can have a score of 10 which should be 5/5 (measuring 5 each hip) a score around 4/6 would still be acceptable while 2/8 will lead to problems later in life because the hips are very uneven besides other things...
Show dog breeders will breed to "type" which is all about looks. Don't forget a dog show is a beauty contest. Many breed for "type" & "temperament" or "type" and "purpose" for pet / working dogs. That is the type of breeders most of us should be looking for...

Original poster
HPandBaconSandwiches · 27/07/2018 05:26

We’re not having the puppy, which is a huge shame but I’m pretty sure it’s the right decision.
Went back again and pups very lovely but breeder was very reluctant to give detail about hip scores. Eventually got that his were 4-5 and hers were 30 (which doesn’t seem to fit with “fair”). She refused to let me see the certificates so I could at least discuss with a vet - said they weren’t qualified to advise and that she’d spoken to a geneticist but refused to let me contact them. Felt awful to be honest. She said people wait years for her dogs and she was very insulted that I had doubts.
Learnt my lesson though and will ensure I ask on the phone if it will be ok to see certificates before I drive a 3 hour round trip...
Thanks for you advice everyone.

OP posts:
tabulahrasa · 27/07/2018 07:44

30 if it corresponds with any of the hip score schemes means the bitch actually has hip dysplasia... so no wonder she didn’t want you taking the paperwork to a vet.

Sometimes breeders breed from animals with a score a bit high, but they’d have a reason to, which they’d be happy to talk over with you.

But not that high...

Original poster
HPandBaconSandwiches · 27/07/2018 08:22

Thanks tabula, it was the reluctance to show me the paperwork that sealed it.
She seemed genuinely upset that I would think her breeding stock weren’t ideal. The dogs and pups did seem very well looked after but it’s just too much risk for us, even if the sire was in excellent health (which I didn’t get to see evidence of either).
Really expected this to be much easier! Have learned a lot!

OP posts:
SpanielsAreNuts · 27/07/2018 08:58

You've done the right thing. Anyone who doesn't want you to see certificates of health tests, is a huge no. And that bitch shouldn't be bred from.

She said people wait years for her dogs and she was very insulted that I had doubts.
She seemed genuinely upset that I would think her breeding stock weren’t ideal.

Also to get upset that someone wants to see the certificates, is either that she feels guilty for breeding a bitch that should never have been bred from or that she was trying to manipulate you into buying without seeing the certificates. A good breeder would be pleased you wanted to be sure the puppies had the best future health possible.

Original poster
HPandBaconSandwiches · 27/07/2018 09:04

Thanks spaniels it’s reassuring to hear it was the right choice. Back to the drawing board looking for a good breeder!

OP posts:
BiteyShark · 27/07/2018 09:04

I didn't bother with hip scores for my cocker as I was happy not to get them (won't go into a debate but I didn't consider it essential). However I did want the parents to have been tested for prcd-PRA and FN and my breeder talked me through the certificates and let me have a copy to take away so yes I agree you were right to walk away because if they have nothing to hide then they would show you everything.

SpanielsAreNuts · 27/07/2018 10:04

I know you are not in UK but the UK kennel club has a section on their website where you can check individual dogs health tests - it may be worth seeing if whoever registers pedigrees in your country does the same. It's good for double checking on certificates validity and if there is a negative health test they are hiding from you.

missbattenburg · 27/07/2018 11:07

Yep, agree that refusal to let you see the paperwork would have had me running in the opposite direction also.

Regardless of whether the dog was good enough to breed or not (it doesn't sound like it but...) for me the worry would be the guilt I would feel if health issues did develop. I would spend ages running around in my head thinking 'if I'd have seen that paperwork would I have picked up on something sooner'.

You've got to be 100% happy with the dog you choose. Dogs are stressful enough when ill without the added nag that you picked the wrong breeder.

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