Is it cruel?

[susej]

Used to have a pet dog, loved him, lived a long time but hated walks when he got older (basset hound). Earlier I was watching those dog acts from Britain’s got talent, but is this cruel to make a dog do this or do they genuinely love it? Do they like to be trained in this way? I understand it’s important to train a dog, but are dogs like children and like routine and boundaries? I see acts like that and I’m on the fence as to whether I agree with them or not.

Do dogs even like being pets? Is that their natural state? I know pet dogs will always be a thing and the majority of people treat them like family, but surely some breeds aren’t right to be kept as family pets. I don’t really know what I’m asking to be honest, perhaps, if you have a dog, what counts as proper care? Did you train your dog to behave, and do you agree with say people keeping dogs inside most of the time? Would you get a dog if you didn’t have a garden for example? How did you decide you had the time and energy for a pup?

Well of course I don't think it's cruel as I have a pet dog who I train and I keep it inside the house when we are not out walking or training.

I think I’m over thinking things I’ve got into that thinking hole and wondering “do dogs like being dogs?” “Would they rather be roaming free?” “Are they like humans and have a need for love?”

I haven't been watching BGT - is it some sort of dog dancing routine?

I don't think there's anything wrong with dog dancing (aka heelwork to music). It means that the dog is spending lots of time with its owner, having its mind exercised, being entertained, and getting lots of treats in the process. I'd sooner the dog was doing that than lounging around at home bored!

Some dogs will like the training but not cope with the performance - this won't be the case if it's doing a good routine on BGT!

If the performance involves jumping through hoops of fire or similar, that's really not fair on the dog as the dog is having to override its fear mechanisms.

I think people put human emotions on dogs. While I would never hurt a dog if it misbehaved, another dog would nip it.Mine would definitely like to have a wider world , loves his walks but obviously can't roam free like my cats could.

I do agility. It is obvious when my dog is happy to do anything and when it isn't. Essentially I cannot force him to 'perform' if he doesn't want to.

avocados yes just old videos on YouTube of the dog acts (don’t ask) and I just wondered if it’s even fair to make a dog do that, but as you say, if they didn’t enjoy it I doubt they’d cooperate!

RedHelenB I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with people putting human emotions on dogs, I just wonder if they sit there thinking, I want to be outside playing and then just lay on the sofa dreaming of a better life

If you study how dogs became domesticated you will be reasuured that dogs were fundamental in the "befriending" of humans for their own gain.

Positively trained dogs eg Pudsey etc love doing what they dog. I personally know Ashley Butller and can assure you that her dogs love being busy and adore the training. We were at the same agility competition this weekend -Ican assure you her dogs were well, healthy and very happy.

If I have a clicker in my hand my dogs will not leave me alone and will stay with me and hassle me to do things with them rather than be on their own roaming free

I think it depends how the dog is ‘trained’ to do these things and you can’t always tell by watching. If a dog is hit and does these tricks because it is scared to disobey its owner then yes, that is cruel. However, some of the heel work that tub see is so intricate and requires the dog to be so engaged with the handler that I can’t see how you could train it with fear.

On the other hand, if a dog is trained with positive reinforcement it will probably enjoy the structure, the challenge and the time and attention from it’s owner. In this instance it is less cruel than leaving a dog by itself all the time with no human interaction or mental stimulation.

I am generally in awe of dogs like this. My greyhound was not the quickest or most willing learner. I’d have been ‘right, you just lift your paw up and then spin around and jump backwards’ and he’d just think ‘nope’ and close his eyes again. He couldn’t have been made to do these things any which way, but I’m sure the ones that do well at things like this are looked after well and trained positively.

I can't speak for all dogs, but my dog has roamed free (street dog) and been a pet.

He 100% prefers being a pet! He was a nervous wreck when we got him. But with love, good food and some attention the change in him has been dramatic! He is a very happy pet who enjoys his walks but given the choice prefers sleeping on a soft bed indoors most of the day

Dogs are social opportunists - they evolved to live alongside humans as it presented an opportunity to have easier access to resources (ie food) and that still continues - Dogs aim to please, which is why positive reinforcement training works so much better than punishment based (especially when trying to do more complex stuff like heelwork)

As BiteyShark said, it's very obvious when a dog does not enjoy their job. But for those that do enjoy it they get excellent mental stimulation and develop a strong bond with their handler.

It's interesting, I think. My dog was born in the streets, and now is half outdoor, half indoors! She loves to follow us about, do a bit of training, go for walks and outings....but she doesn't seem to need much stimulation as she always has access to a big outdoor space to roam freely and I think this actually fullfills mist of her needs. This will change a bit when we move to the UK, and I'll be interested to see how she adapts with less roaming, and whether she depends more on us!

There's a definite attention-seeking streak in some dogs that seems to come from the bond with an owner.

DS doesn't do much of the donkeywork or even feeding of our dog, but he can somehow enthuse her into performing for him without a whiff of a treat. She sits bolt upright in front of him quivering for his attention until he gives her a command to do.

I think it's all about the right training and lifestyle for the right dog.

A husky will want to be outside in a group running. But that wouldn't be right for a sausage dog. It's not fair to keep a big dog or working dog in a flat but a toy bread would be happy in a flat with a couple for short walks. Some dogs are great at tricks and heel work but a pug wouldnt have the physical ability.

Dogs definitely like being well cared for pets. I think their emotions are close enough to human that you can tell if they are happy or content.
I do think it's cruel to leave them alone too long and not play with them or exercise them enough. You could have a dog without a garden though if you took it for plenty of walks.
Training is beneficial for all dogs but I think you have to be aware of not pushing them too hard. Only some dogs are up to the sort of things you see on BGT. But I think as long as you stick to what suits your dog it's really good.

There's a lot between being a well cared for pet and performing dogs.
Agree different situations suit different dogs. Growing up we had collies and Labradors, very intelligent and biddable. Now I have African village dogs which have never been selectively bred. I find them naturally intelligent, affectionate, very trainable... but also independent and energy-conserving! They seek our affection and attention, but not as much as dogs which are selectively bred to do jobs, like the collies and labs. So I agree it's horses (or dogs) for courses....but humans have actively selected genes for some breeds to do jobs....and these are the ones who enjoy or need this kind of stimulation, I think. So not cruel for them, but not entirely 'natural' for all dogs, if you consider the generations of selected genetics. (I have to now go and teach my village dog some heelwork to music, to check out my theory . Having said that, im very sure that if she didnt enjoy it, she just wouldnt do it)

There's nothing wrong with dog sports or heelwork to music as long as the methods used are positive. A dog will let you know if they hate training, all of these dogs love having a job. But every dog is different and a lazy dog may hate it whilst an active one loves having a task!

My dog loves being my dog! This morning he got my up (by climbing on the bed and licking me and sitting on my head). We went in the garden and he ran round with his toys playing with me and woofing. Whilst I ate my breakfast (sat on the floor) he sat on the sofa with his head on my shoulder trying to grab the contents of every spoonful that passed. He went out for a walk with my hubby (off lead down to the river for a dip and to chase flies). He got home, ran into the office and bounced all over me and then collapsed in a heap. He is currently asleep with his head on my foot. When it gets to lunch time we'll have some more play or go out to the pet shop or something else he likes. He'll snooze some more this afternoon and then woof an exstatic greeting to my DD when she gets home from school and drive us all nuts all evening trying to get everyone to tickle his tummy or play games. he'll get another run in the fields or the woods after tea and will then settle down to warm up my lap on the sofa for the evening. I'll brush him and he'll make wuffly happy noises and snore. I'll carry him out for his last wee at 10pm and then he'll sleep next to my bed in his plushy dog basket.
He is rarely left alone and he gets a minimum of two walks per day and lots of love and attention. What is not to like? He also does dog training class on a Thursday which is the highlight of his week - he DRAGS me in through the door wagging so hard his bum nearly falls over. He would certainly let me know if he didn't want to do something!

We do agility with our 8 year old pointer. We took our new addition, who is 9 weeks old, to watch at the weekend and he sat rigid on my lap quivering with excitement. He can’t wait to get stuck in so yes, I think he’ll love being trained.

I absolutely love this thread I definitely think I was overthinking things, although told my partner I made this thread and he said about the BGT dogs having jobs, and said is being a dog with a job the ultimate goal for all dogs, does your dog walk past a police dog and think, yep that’s superior dog
Who knows, but glad everyone’s pups are loving life!