Dogs still not getting along

[Babyroobs]

Just asking for any advice/ tips please.
I have a almost 7 year old dog and a nine month old working cocker spaniel who we have had since he was 8 weeks old. They have never fully got along together. I was hoping it would get better in time, and it has to some extent. I still don't walk them together off lead unless there is myself and my husband walking as the puppy jumps on my older dog , upsets her, body slams into her, and is just generally way too rough and she ends up not enjoying her walks. Obviously we discipline him if he does this, putting him back on the lead for a short time trying to show him that it is unaccepatable etc. When he is walked off lead on his own he is a dream, gets along well with all other dogs, loves to play with other dogs and does so nicely - in a nutshell he doesn't treat other dogs like he does his sister !
Obviously walking them separately is time consuming but I would rather do it than have a stressful walk !
In the evening we walk them on lead and if we try to go separate ways, the puppy refuses to go and cries if he is not walking with older dog, so there clearly is some love there !
In the house, they rub along ok together , sometimes playing tug with play growling, but at other times it descends into a real snarling match with our older dog getting really upset. there is a lot of possessiveness over toys / chew bones - I can give them both their own chew bone but they will want the others and it descends into a scrap. I feel exasperated with it all and don't feel entirely comfortable leaving them for even a short time alone together.
I guess what I'm asking is if things have not really improved in even months, are they likely to get any better , or if anyone has any tips on what to do to improve things. Puppy gets a lot of exercise , sometimes three walks a day and my teenage son walks him miles off lead. I'm just beginning to think that like with kids the age gap can just be too big and things are never going to improve.

First off, I’d stop them having toys/chews when they are in the same room. Even playing with ropes together etc is not great, even if it looks like they’re having fun. Even dogs who get along will get possessive over stuff.

Feed them separately too, different crates in different rooms.

If they feel the other might be able to take their stuff, there will be tension.

Lots of outside walks together so they can have some soace but still be together.

Ditto the above - remove anything that is a source of tension so avoid potential flashpoints. Fundamentally, puppies are annoying and some older dogs don’t react well to this.

It sounds like your puppy is getting more than the recommended amount of exercise, which can have a detrimental long-term effect on joints. I would switch some of the walks for training sessions, in particular you need to train a solid ‘leave’ to use when he’s hassling your older dog. You’ll probably find that including more mental stimulation calms him down faster than more exercise, and also gives you a lot more tools to use to redirect his energy if he’s winding your other dog up. Training classes are also a good idea if you’re not going already. Your aim needs to be to stop the puppy being annoying, not to just hope your older dog learns to put up with it.

9 months old is smack bam in the middle of arsehole. I know because my springer is 10 months.

I think, for me, it comes down to how the older dog is handling tellings off. Some dogs handle it really well and while it might be noisy and they might snap, you can see that there is no real force behind the snap/bite and snarling is done when the pup is doing something rude (going near face, genitals, hip bumping, putting paws on top of older dog etc). The older dog may even rush at and pin the younger dog, but again without any real force. In these cases the older dog is likely to remain fairly calm and in good spirits, except when actively telling off.

This I would allow to happen, only interfering if the younger dog was not giving in and appeasing the older dog or if the older dog was starting to get upset or stressed. Then I would use an interrupt signal ("uh-oh") and remove the puppy. I would also interrupt if the older dog does not discipline appropriately or if there is a large power in balance between the two dogs.

As an example, my springer lives with 2 older JRTs. One (the bitch) is always giving him a ticking off but always does it when it is fair, always her 'bites' are controlled (I know because my hand was once accidentally in there and she had no force behind it) and never seems upset by it. In short, despite being much smaller she is perfectly capable of taking care of the scenario and appears to be a very fair teacher. I've noticed that springer has just started to show signs he is listening and stops whatever he is doing when she says so.

The other JRT is a little male who has no teeth and no social skills. He doesn't know what is appropriate and so any growls from him come from a place of fear and so sometimes unfair (i.e. he may growl even when the springer is not doing anything). With no teeth and little strength he is also massively disadvantaged. Springer is never allowed to upset him and I always intervene.

I would leave springer and bitch alone together. I would not leave springer and dog alone - probably ever.

However, in all cases food, chews, toys are never left lying about. You can't just give them one each and hope they understand - I think the guidelines are that if you insist on doing this you need at least 2 x the items per dog (2 dogs = 4 identical toys). It's easier not to and just pick everything up.

Walking them together is great. If he cannot behave off lead then walk him on lead.

Praise and treat the puppy every time he leaves the older dog alone - you are looking for very simple gestures like him walking past her and not bothering her. Anytime you spot this, praise him. Anytime you spot puppy lying down and not bothering older dog, treat.

Try and find spaces the older dog can be undisturbed. For ours, they each have an arm chair and when they are on the chair the puppy is not allowed up. They know they can relax there because we will run defence, if needed. In the early days that meant I literally sat on the floor in front of the chair and rejected the puppy each time he tried to get up. These days he rarely bothers trying. They also have spots on different rooms - e.g. under my desk is a 'safe zone' for the bitch and she often comes and sits under there while I am working.

I also agree you may be over walking the cocker. If he's not getting around 14=16 hours of sleep a day, he is probably over tired. An over tired puppy is even more of an arsehole than a well rested one.

I have no idea if your dogs will ever get along together (I am guessing they will) but I would not be giving up hope until puppy was properly mature (at least 18 months old).

*"I think, for me, it comes down to how the older dog is handling tellings off. Some dogs handle it really well and while it might be noisy and they might snap, you can see that there is no real force behind the snap/bite and snarling is done when the pup is doing something rude (going near face, genitals, hip bumping, putting paws on top of older dog etc). The older dog may even rush at and pin the younger dog, but again without any real force. In these cases the older dog is likely to remain fairly calm and in good spirits, except when actively telling off.

This I would allow to happen, only interfering if the younger dog was not giving in and appeasing the older dog or if the older dog was starting to get upset or stressed. Then I would use an interrupt signal ("uh-oh") and remove the puppy. I would also interrupt if the older dog does not discipline appropriately or if there is a large power in balance between the two dogs."*

This is really excellent advice. What might look like a nasty scrap to humans can be a on older dog appropriately disciplining an unruly youngster. My old cattle dog helped me raise several litters of rescue puppies, and he was wonderful at being the benign uncle until they got out of line and then he'd give them a proper telling off. He never hurt a puppy, and they were never frightened off him, so I just let him get on with it. After being ticked off, they'd go back to him with appeasement behaviours, not frightened of him, but having learned the lesson about manners.

If your younger dog is unfazed, then I'd let the older dog teach him some manners. With the proviso that your older dog might have some pain issues and having the younger one jump all over him might be causing discomfort, so be alert for more than just a telling off.

If your younger dog is crate trained, then some time out would be good for both of them. If he's not crate trained, it's a good exercise to teach calmness and self-control.

If you don't go the crate route, I used to teach my Neos an "on your bed command". Inside the house no-one got treats unless they were on their beds, so the "on your bed" command meant everyone went to their place and stayed there until they were allowed off.

With unruly young dogs, lots of exercise can make them very fit, unruly dogs. :-) Doing some training with them, even ten minutes teaching some tricks, can wear them out more than a long walk - making their brains tired is a great way of inducing peace.

Thanks everyone for the advice, some great tip which I will work on. They currently just sleep anywhere, so the idea about having their own space sounds very sensible. I have recently got rid of the crate as the puppy seemed to be getting to the point where he didn't use it ( we never shut him in ) but it may be worth getting it out again as a safe space for him.

Re: toy and chews. I would never give them chews in the same room. My two will behave with toys out, so long as there is at least 6 toys scattered around the room. I do have to intervene occasionally by calling one dog over and offering that one a different toy. It also helps that when it comes to playing with me, that my cocker pup likes playing fetch and my Cavalier likes tug - so I can play with both dogs at the same time.