Respectful discussion about Ethical Breeders and Rescue Places

[LiquoriceWheel]

Hello, very excited to be posting here because everyone in my family has decided to get a family dog! We've been talking about it for over a year.

I'm going to be mostly responsible for grooming, poop-scooping, diet, exercise and taking it to puppy school (everyone will pitch in with reinforcement training when they can).

I'm not rushing into this decision at all BUT I've always had my heart set on a pedigree dog breed.

I have a pedigree cat and I researched for months and got to know the breeder, went to her house and saw all her other cats and my cat's mum and litter mates. They were so well cared for, the lady's home was immaculate and she loved her cats very much. It was a wonderful experience and the cat we have is an absolute delight.

BUT I know that there are so many dogs languishing in shelters that need a good home. I've met rescue dogs and they are lovely. I told my friend about getting a dog and she said to go to the pound and get a dog on death row and they will love you forever. :(

I'll do my research properly for a pedigree dog but I feel so guilty about the dogs in the pound :( I don't want to be close minded about the idea though.

Pedigree and Rescue dog people can you share your philosophies with me please :) open to all opinions just keep things civil the good, bad, ugly and beautiful. Thanks again. Looking forward to reading your opinions and thoughts.

Pound and rescue are not the same thing.
Pound dogs have zero history, no temperament assessments, no home visits.
You turn up and pay and voila.
They have 7 days to find their previous owner before being either rehomed or euthanised.

We got a pound dog when I was a child, didn't realise it was a pound as they called themselves a rescue.
First it snarled (unprovoked) at my brother, then it humped everything in sight, then it went for my dad when he walked past as it was eating.
Back to the pound it went the next morning.

I have a nearly 6 year old dog now bought from a breeder.
She's a delight.
Never even given a person stink eye let alone a growl.

I'd always rescue. Mine came to me in an unusual sort of way, from a former flatmate, so I didn't choose him (fate did!), I wasn't intending to get a dog at this point in my life, and frankly he isn't the dog I would initially have chosen had I had free rein at a rescue centre. He came with issues (NB not all rescues do) and almost zero training beyond being housebroken.

But despite not having the most auspicious start to our lives together, it has worked. Despite having grown up with dogs, I went on a massive learning curve with him. We go to training classes, we walk for miles together, and he comes with me everywhere I can take him. Almost all of his issues have been resolved - I like to say he's 95% perfect and 5% work in progress (and that % is better than many pedigrees bought as puppies!). Like your friend said, he really does love me - even total strangers in the park comment on what a bond he clearly has with me, as even when he's off doing his own thing he'll glance over at me every 10 seconds or so just to check I'm still there. Total strangers comment on how well trained / well behaved he is. And I absolutely adore him - even though he wasn't the dog I would have chosen, and I wasn't even looking for a dog at the time.

Pedigree and rescue need not be mutually exclusive - pedigree dogs do come into rescue generally, and there are also breed rescues for specific breeds. If you've got a particular breed in mind, that might be the happy compromise.

A good rescue centre will match the dog to your family. It will have spent time getting to know the dog and will have information about its temperament. It will homecheck you and make sure that you are in a position to be a good dog owner, which I'm sure you will be.

If you have your heart set on a specific breed look for breed-specific rescue centres and be prepared to travel to meet the dog, in the same way that you would for a breeder.

TBH, unless you're planning to show the dog or breed from it yourself (not advisable for a novice), there's no need for a pedigree. Much better to find a dog that fits with your family forever and forget about its family tree.

@Snappy things may have been different when you were a child.

The same rules about having 7 days to find a stray dog's owner are true. However, those dogs that get to the 8th day are usually picked up by rescue organisations - be it independent ones or more national ones like Dogs Trust - and then go for rehoming. Those that can't be found a rescue spot are put down. I'm not aware that dog pounds are, in 2018, routinely rehoming dogs directly to the public without proper checks, and articles like this one make no mention of it either www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/dec/08/dog-pounds-nightmare-christmas-unwanted-pets

I've done both, and I'm a vet, so I see lots of both!
Rescue dogs can be great. My ddog is a rescue of a breed I never thought I'd have, and she is a wonderful dog. We also rescued another dog, of a breed we'd never considered, circumstance, and only had him a few years but were besotted. We have tried breed rescue, but have been looking for 2 years without success. By chance, someone I knew knew someone etc and we are getting a puppy in 2 weeks

There ARE good breeders out there, but you need to do your research. If you have a breed in mind, see if you can find some shows and go and watch, speak to breeders and get a feel for the breed and an idea of issues surrounding the breed. Good breeders are usually genuinely passionate about their breed and will happily talk to you. They may even know someone with a dog of that breed that is looking to find a good home.

A good breeder won't advertise on the internet. They just dont. If people are advertising on gumtree or preloved I'd avoid. They should be more interested in grilling you about what kind of home you can give the puppy than on how much you are willing to spend. You should be able to see mum with the pups (and sometimes dad is there too, as a bonus)

I too feel a little guilty when there are so many dogs in rescue, but we know we want this particular breed, and there are none in rescue. Breed is more important than people like to think- different breeds are need for different things, and those characteristics are still strong, and should be taken into account when choosing a dog. I get annoyed when people come to me complaining that their hound only wants to sniff, or that their Lhasa (need to warn!) barks!

Rescue is great, and most of our one eyed three legged incontinent animals have come to us by chance, but if you do your homework there is no shame in looking for the breed that suits your family.

I have one of each. Both fantastic dogs!

Pre children I would have thought nothing of rescuing however didn’t this last time because I wanted to know the temperament of the whole line of dogs and wanted a dog bred for a specific purpose (a family pet mainly!) whereas lots of the backstreet bred dogs that end up in rescue are bred from bad lines and are more prone to nervous and aggressive behaviours. I have been there and done that and don’t wish to go there again when I have small children.

My original rescue dog is a delight and I love him very much however he was very hard work to mould into the dog I wanted due to his early experiences, I wouldn’t have had that time now!

I would say consider rescue but be mindful that generally rescue dogs do come needing just as much work as a puppy if not more!

Would you plan to breed/show the pedigree dog? If not and it's just that you like the breed, then some rescue centre somewhere is going to have a dog that is right for you. Breeding dogs will from time to time escape and have a romantic liaison with a non-pedigree lover, even a pedigree litter can have one pup who can't be sold because of some trait which doesn't affect the dog's health but makes them fall short of the breed standard. Take your time, the right pup will need rescuing sooner or later.

I have two pedigrees that I got from breeders. Mine are a rare native terrier breed so very few breeders around (less than 300 pups registered a year), this means that the breeders I found are really just breeding from their pet - what the doghouse calls backyard breeding - but both my pups are impeccably bred and wonderfully reared, cared for and socialised. In both cases it was the only litter the bitch had. In the case of this breed if some people don’t breed their pets there would be hardly any left in a few years time.
My pups couldn’t adore me more, they are utterly devoted to me which means they get away with their insane naughtiness as everything they do is done in love and joy.
Rescues in this breed do come up (I would estimate about 10 a year) but they have nearly always got significant behavioural problems. This is normally because the owners didn’t do their research properly and were surprised by some of the eccentric breed characteristics.

I am firmly in the rescue camp, but agree that unless you are an experienced owner then taking an unknown dog from a pound can be risky.

We are so overpopulated with dogs that I also believe that rescuing rather than buying is the only responsible thing to do.

Those who say" it's too difficult to rescue" perhaps need to be more honest about whether a dog really is a good fit for their lifestyle, or whether they have actually found a good rescue ( like everything, there are good and less good, ideally you are looking for one which fosters dogs and that you can follow for a while to see if you like the way they work)

I acknowledge that for working dogs, service dogs and rare breeds there is a case for breeding.

I don't think anyone disputes that puppy farming is an abomination, but unless people stop buying puppies from these people it will never go away.

I may be coming soon this from a slightly different perspective, as in Ireland I have honestly seen every purebred dog turn up in pounds and rescues, from a St Bernard to a Chihuahua and everything in between. The stream of unwanted dogs is endless.

Op if you tell us which breed you're looking for, guarantee someone on here will find it for you ;)

Another vet here . Personally I've done both. My last dog was a death row dog. Terrier mixer,approx. 1 year old when I got her, no manners, no training....and an absolute sweetheart of an animal and had been from day one...with an adult its usually easier to judge temperament to be honest..Puppies can change a lot as they grown.There was no badness in her but she was mad as a box of frogs unless you kept her head and body tired. However very easy to house train and became a pet you could bring anywhere and trust with anyone very quickly.

My current Girl is a uncommon breed where I am and I'm hoping to breed in the future( if she's good enough and passes all the health tests for the breed- eyes,hips and elbows will be checked before breeding...and I would consider that basic...and this is one of the healthiest breeds I have managed to come across thanks to good breeding practices)...I got in touch with the breeder via her website and got in contact by email,visited her home- met my pups mother and half brother as well as other dogs from the same lines and spent months on a waiting list before acquiring my Pupper.....and shes a wonderful pup..and its amazing to have the back up of a good breeder for any qns or queries,we have a facebook messanger group with all the families who have pups from this litter etc.Temperament drive and looks wise she is exactly as I was expecting. She's going to be a wonderful dog when she's older.....but omg I have forgotten how much work it is to have a puppy. House training,basic manners.....everything...its just so much harder and takes so much longer with a young puppy then with an adult dog....and mines only 6 month she hasn't hit the challenging teenage age yet! I do want another of this breed in the future....but if I could I'd go for another adult!

Soo I'd strongly consider the breed rescues if you have a breed in mind unless your desperate for a puppy.

If your going for a specific breed puppy then be prepared to spend time looking for a decent breeder and deciding exactly what it is you want from a dog....there are a massive amount of backyard breeders and puppy farmers out there....but given its a 14 plus year commitment involved in a dog I would be very careful about where I got a pup from. Going for a decent breeder and a healthy breed can make a massive difference to you and your dogs longterm physical and mental health and happiness.

I foster for a rescue, and have two wonderful rescue dogs of my own.
I think you can never generalise about rescue dogs - there are those that have massive problems one way or another, and some that have been very much loved every day of their life until the owner can't have them for no fault of the dog. There are dogs of every age from born in rescue to very elderly. There are rescue organisations who have all the dogs in kennels and have rigid rules on rehoming, to ones with all the dogs living in family homes and flexible rules - and everything in between.

I'm not against breeding when the breeder is breeding for the good of the breed and taking all the time, care, and attention that this takes - and with utter care for the bitch and her health.

I hear all sorts of generalisations about rescues not homing to people who work/have children/have cats/live in flats, which is simply not true. Some rescues may not as they can't assess the dogs, but the rescue I am involved with take every dog and person as they come and talk about how they will manage living on a houseboat for instance.

So if you have your heart set on a particular actual breed (not a designer cross), talk to the breed club, ring breeders, meet them, get on a waiting list once you are sure they meet all the health tests needed for that breed, have a good interbreeding coefficient, then see if one of those pups is the one for you.

But please consider if someone like my current foster pup would bring as much love into your life. We have a never ending stream of under 6 month old pups coming in unfortunatly

Ive also done both.. had one terrible experience with a rescue dog who had (undiagnosed) neurological problems, 6 months of being amazing and the literally flew at me from across the kitchen and attacked me. I convinced myself that it was something I had done and carried on.. 2 days later she went again but this time my son was in the way, got him out of the way and she bit me so hard I’ve still got scars, 5 years later. Took her to the vet and she was literally rabid. Out of totally nowhere.

I will say that is EXTREMELY unusual and our other rescue dog wouldn’t say boo to a goose.. I am currently waiting for our pup from a breeder but because the lines they are from is ideal for the job it’s being got to do.

If you want a particular breed, have you considered a breed rescue? There are quite a few specific breed rescues, who have some wonderful dogs looking for good homes.

Beyond that, I'd not want to tell you what to do. I have three dogs - two rescues, one pedigree. The oldest dog is virtually the perfect dog, we got her from a rescue as a puppy - she is wonderful, always has been. The middle dog is a pedigree, whom I researched well, met the parents & breeder, checked all scores, etc - we did all the things you are supposed to - but she has been a bit of a problem dog, she turned out to have chronic colitis (now under control) which led to a very challenging few years, and is also quite neurotic. The youngest dog is a rescue from a foreign pound, arrived at four months, could have all gone wrong, and it is a bit of a risk - but she is a wonderful dog - not without her challenges though, but we've been very lucky in many ways.

So my experiences are mixed. There are good & bad rescues, good & bad breeders. I don't see anything wrong with buying from a genuinely good breeder. But equally, there are lots of rescue dogs looking for a good home.

Why not have a look around at rescues, general and breed specific, and see if there's anything that would work for you? Equally, why not do your research and speak to some good breeders. See what's around, and what appeals to you the most.

Thank you for all your replies, they have been excellent. Exactly the balance of knowledge I was after. I am reading through each one very slowly.

'Still collating' as Ash would say

I've just read through every post and I'm so glad I asked mumsnetters for their wisdom. I definitely feel a lot more open to adopting a rescue dog than I was before (I'm surprised by that tbh). Still a lot to digest. Thanks again everyone

My rescue Staffy is literally the perfect dog...loving, wonderful temperament, happy to be left alone, great with kids and other dogs. I could have chosen from 100 puppies and never would have found a better dog. I would 100% rescue again

We wouldn't ever buy a dog. There are just too many dogs rotting in rescues or being put down. I agree with a previous poster that rescue dogs can vary so much, some have issues (most, if think, are easily sortable with a bit of time and work) but a lot don't, and are there due to owner issues rather than dog issues. Two of mine were pedigree dogs, extremely well bred labs, and wonderful dogs. There are a a lot of pedigree dog rescues for most breeds, you just have to hunt around. That way you can still get your dream breed and save a rescue..

One thing I have noticed with people that buy rather than rescue is they're often impulsive and impatient. Quite a lot say they want a rescue, even go and look at a few rescues, but if they don't find the right dog that day they go and reserve a puppy because "there was nothing that suited our family in rescue". Rescues are not supermarkets, you might have to bide your time a little while, but there is 100% going to be something to suit your family if you're patient (and you'd probably have found it in the time you wait for a puppy to be old enough to leave the mother anyway).

I would personally never have a rescue puppy. Even if it was born in rescue. The mother dogs pregnancy can have a long term effect on the future behaviour and health of the puppy. Also a puppy in rescue isn't likely to have been bred well.

Pre-children I would happily have had an adult rescue dog. The long term health can be quite a gamble as you generally won't know how they were bred but at least their temperament should be known.

I have young DC and decided against rescue because of the dodgy rescue (with an excellent reputation) my brother got his from. She was supposed to be good for people with young DC and a total sweetie, who never pulled on the lead. Whilst she can just about tolerate young DC, they frighten her (even calm, sitting quietly, watching TV young DC). I think she's been badly hurt by them in the past. She is also all other animal aggressive and pulls like a lunatic when she sees any living creature (she was in a kennel away from other dogs but they said that was because she was new and they had asked my brother to visit at a quieter time to take her for a walk because they were so busy). She also came with a horrific worm burden, despite supposedly having been wormed 2 weeks previously (another dog i know from the same rescue was the same too).

When my DC are older I'd be happier to rescue but whilst they are little I've had puppies from breeders.

I applied for rescue dogs but we were first time owners, with a primary school age child and cats too. We struggled.
And I had my dream of owning a wolfhound.
The reality is that something awful like nearly 8/10 of puppies bought in the UK come from puppy farmers. I waited for more than two years to get my pup. I was on the list for a breeder. Met after approaching the breed club and going to shows to learn more about the breed.

Obviously breeders are a risk too. But if you really do your homework, find a good breeder (and the right breed obviously), and are willing to put the work in with a puppy requires then you should end up with a well balanced dog used to the type of home you can offer from day 1.

Both my dogs came from very good breeders, well respected within the relevant breed clubs. Fully health tested parents, low coefficient of inbreeding, healthy lines with good temperaments. They both well socialised but I think my second dogs breeder was about as perfect a breeder as it is humanly possible to be. It showed in the puppies. Will write more about her later.

As said above there are good breeders and bad ones - equally there are good and bad rescues! loads of puppies in rescues (including pedigrees) and of course if you get an adult dog you have a better idea of their health and personality - this can change as they grow and even an excellent breeder can throw a dog with problems unintentionally.
We have had many wonderful rescue dogs. The two we had with biggest issues were both bought direct from a breeder - it wouldn't put me off getting from a breeder but you MUST do your research. A good breeder probably won't have a litter available, you may have to wait. They'll quiz you as much as you quiz them and would be happy for you to come meet them/their dogs even before a litter is born.
But I can't imagine having anything but a rescue, I have met too many wonderful rescue dogs (with NO issues). When our old girl finally falls asleep forever our next dog will definitely be a rescue. Our DS is 5 so we will be cautious but luckily through work I know good rescues who I would put myself in their hands and ask what have you got that would work for us. We're lucky enough that we have the time for a puppy but I may put foot down and get a nice adult dog!
A good rescue will also quiz you, want you to come meet the dog often a couple of times if not more and offer a full back up for life - that is training advice, taking dog back if circumstances change etc etc. If a rescue says you can pick up the dog on the day you first come to them I would run away!

My first dog was a pedigree pup, from a breeder. I thought a lab pup would be easy and he was so cute. He was a nightmare for the first 2 yrs, bouncy and bitey and always eating stuff he shouldn't, really hard work.
I always wanted 2 dogs and couldn't face the puppy stage again so got a 1yr old rescue GSD X when lab was 3.
He's perfect, ignores other dogs and people on walks. Rock solid recall. Even helps with rounding up my lab who suffers from selective deafness.
Would never get another puppy. With an adult dog, from a good rescue, you have a good idea of what you're getting.

Can't you have a pedigree from a rescue? I'm fairly sure that's what we've got.

I would never have a rescue dog with small children around. I've had rescue dogs before where they had apparently been checked and tested for suitability for family life and 1 had to be put to sleep and another rehomed to one with no children.

The dog pts used to go completely nuts when childrens toys made a noise or flashed lights. He also was very agressive towards children once he had a lead put on him but not when just plodding around the house. Perfectly sweet and well behaved any other time. The vet felt it wasn't anything we could change for him and being unpredictable around children he was considered dangerous so put to sleep.

Ask at your vets for any clients expecting puppies who might be looking for a home or contact the breed society for the breed you are interested in.

I'll give you a real life example of why not to buy a puppy from someone who sticks up an ad in the vets or Facebook/ Gumtree.
I met a dog walking acquaintance this morning, with his lovely dog who recently had cruciate surgery and has been diagnosed with hip dysplasia, age 3. He is determined to breed from her, knowing that the pups cannot be KC registered because of health issues, but reckons this won't be a problem as he'll sell the pups cheap. It's a common but still fairly sought after breed.

Now if you came to his house to buy one of these cheap puppies you would find lovely dogs in a nice family home. Perfect, you would think? Your cheap puppy could turn out very, very expensive ( morals of breeding from an unhealthy dog aside)

A pup born in rescue may not come with any health guarantees, but at least you're not being duped like the buyers of these pups will be.