Considering a King Charles/Cavalier Spaniel. Now not sure?

[GrimDamnFanjo]

We lost our working cocker 18 months ago and are starting to consider another family dog. We're both at home and have older children, 11 and 19. I spent a couple of days with a friend who had her 3 grandogs staying who were cavaliers and after researching the breed thought they would be a good fit for us.
I'd heard about their health issues and thought it was just a matter of buying sensibly from a reputable breeder with parental MRI scans, cardiology reports etc.
Now I've spent a few days researching and it seems to me that owning a dog that remains heathy will be very difficult - the genes from the breeding pool will eventually result in serious ill health for almost all Cavaliers.
Are there any Mumsnet experienced breeders/vets/trainers who know the breed well give me any hope here or should I look at other breeds?

And if anyone has any alternatives, please suggest them
Our ballpark criteria is:
Small/medium size - we have moved house since we bought our Working cocker so anything above a show cocker may be too big.
Friendly/sociable/people orientated
Not Barky/yappy (guard breeds definitely out)
Low/medium exercise - so happy to go for long walks but not with the exercise needs of a working breed.
Clever enough to train fairly easily.

Can't give you advice on spaniels I'm afraid but can recommend border terriers. I think they would fit your criteria really well. We have two and they are awesome little dogs. Less "terrier" than a lot of terriers but still very hardy. Clever and very trainable (they do have a stubborn streak, but nothing some chicken can't get round). My two can walk for miles but I wouldn't say they need a huge amount every day. As long as they get a couple of reasonable walks a day they are equally happy keeping you company round the house or playing in the garden. We tend to do shorter walks during the week and then longer walks at the weekend and that seems to suit them fine. They are also generally a very healthy breed. My vet always comments on how little they look out for with BTs. They do love company and don't do very well being left alone but mine are ok for a few hours. They also don't take much in the way of upkeep. My two get stripped about twice a year (I just do it myself over a couple of nights) and that keeps any sheddding to a minimum.

Hope you find the right breed soon x

Thanks Oops that's really helpful. I'd not considered the terrier breeds much as i thought they might be a bit too noisy for us X

I can't comment on how to find one, but I have a 13year old Cavalier with no heart or brain issues, so it is possible!

Portuguese podengo. But if you decide to go for it don’t get one from the Plushcourt kennel even though you’d think it would be the best option.

They’re small, intelligent, normally friendly, look like a terrier but are actually a sighthound so are supposed to be a bit less excitable than terriers. I’ve never had a terrier so can’t really compare.

Whippet? Low exercise, or lower than other dogs as well.

I also have a cavachon who is a total couch potato. So half cavalier, still the risk of various cavalier issues but maybe not as much risk as a full cav? Mine is healthy and I know a lot of other healthy cavachon.

You could also consider papillons, which are a little known breed that would fit your spec

I used to have one and would have another in a heartbeat - had I chosen my dog rather than the other way around it would have been a papillon!

In her usual position.

Complete coincidence but I was talking with a friend recently about cavs, and they said the majority of them die of heart failure. Cant remember what % she said. Shes a vet. Personally I would avoid unless you are willing to accept this risk.

I will chime in with my breed, which also suits your list. Staffie. I would second border terrier and papillion except the ones I know are quite barky (more so papillions). Whippet is a good shout although I dont find them drivey enough personally for training. Fine for general "be we behaved" type training though.

We thought long and hard about having a cavalier king Charles, but ended up with a Flatcoat X golden retriever! The main things that put is off the cavalier were the health issues, and also whether they would be active enough for us. Most of the ones we see seem quite docile and low energy other than when they are puppies.

MrsJosh it's interesting you mention Podengos from Plushcourt. We made the mistake of having a puppy from them a few years ago and it was a disaster. Podengos seemed ideal for us at the time, but I wish we had gone to a different breeder.

Not a breeder or vet, but I have a Cavalier. He's 11 - he has a small heart murmur which doesn't require medication and doesn't seem to affect his daily life at all. He's full of energy!

We were careful in choosing a good, established KC registered breeder who had proof that her dogs were tested for known genetic defects.

Having said that, since we've had our boy, I've also become aware of the diminishing gene pool theory in relation to Cavaliers so I would be wary of getting another, especially as the breeder we used has since retired. I do love Cavaliers, so it would be difficult to find another breed that matched up to them (in my subjective opinion, I mean!).

I'd consider a Cavalier cross, but I think it would be difficult to find a responsibly bred one as they do fall into the 'designer dog' category. I have a soft spot for Shih Tzus but I know nothing about the breed so research would be needed!

In short, I don't know what we will do when we lose our lovely boy - if we do decide on another Cavalier, I foresee quite a long search to find the right breeder .

I have a cavalier and a show type cocker. They are evenly matched in the energy stakes (those cavaliers you see plodding around are unfit and obese and bored from never being allowed off lead). The Cavalier is a total lap magnet in the house, whereas the cocker is more independent. Out on walks the cocker is naturally at my side, whereas Cav has always wanted to run off to say hello to everyone and everything, so took a hell of a lot more training in that respect. The cocker trains faster purely because he's smarter, the Cav does his best but takes a little longer to get things.

There are very few good Cav breeders out their but there are some. Be prepared to travel.

If you want an easier to find well bred dog, that's along the same lines as a Cav go for a show type cocker.

*out there

Ps a king Charles spaniel is a very different breed to a cavalier king Charles spaniel

Avoid a cavalier cross like the plague their crosses tend to be far more likely to have issues, than a well bred pure Cav.

That's what I feared about crosses, Swimming. I get the impression the vast majority are from puppy farm origins .

Your recommendation of cockers is interesting - I'd always seen them as having vastly more energy than Cavs but you say they're on a par? Our Cav will stay on the go all day if required, but is also happy with shorter walks, as long as he's taken out at least twice in the day and has some time running round in the garden.

This is a really helpful discussion - thanks everyone. I think its so important to do the best you can to get the right dog for your family.
Coincidently I'd looked at Papillons today too.
@swimming I'm a cocker fan but even a show may be just a bit too big for us.
@Screaming - I think you may have confirmed my thoughts - its a real shame as I was very much taken with the Cavs I met - sporty lap dogs ;)
I think I'm going to look into Border terriers - there are some registered breeders near us.

Screaming show type cockers are much calmer than working type cockers. He needs a good run around the garden in the morning buts happy with an 1-1.5hr walk in the afternoon (only a small bit of it is on a lead). A bit of fetch, training and/or finding games (which the cav loves as much but isn't as good at). Then the show cockers content too. He has been ok on odd days where I've only managed to do 30min walk, so long as he gets another good run around the garden.

You have to make sure they are a true show type though. Some breeders mix in some working type, as they are cheaper, but it creates a chance of a vastly more energetic dog. Mine comes from top show lines on both sides. He's a very sensible dog (well sensible for a spaniel - all spaniels are a bit nutty after all, it's what makes them a joy to live with).

OP There are lines of Cavs out there that are healthy, you just need to be prepared for a very hard search to find them. My Cav was 5th generation his breeder had at home, only the very oldest had a slight heart murmur, which by that age even other breeds tend to. He really knew his lines and only bred genetically clear on the other issues and had lots of them MRI tested (all tested were clear).

ScreamingValenta I have a working cocker and he is happy with one walk a day as long as he gets ball play and some mental exercise. I think a lot of the problems come when people just walk them thinking that will tire them out when it just makes them fitter so it's a viscious circle (and I was guilty of that until I took advice from people who train them to work). When actually if you let them hunt, retrieve and chase things like balls for a bit then they are much more content.

Forgot to say in relation to the diminishing healthy Cav genepool - my Cav came from a breeder who was 'crossing' parti-coloureds in with his solids to reduce inbreeding coefficient / widen the genepool they were coming from. It does however mean you get unshowable Cavs for a couple of generations after as they come out as solids but with a flash of white on their chest, which (ridiculously) isn't allowed.

I have a friend who has a Cavalier King Charles spaniel and I've known the dog since she was a pup. She is now 10 years old and has no health issues whatsoever. She has a long walk every day, and looks healthy with a lovely shiny coat.

She was from a local lady who was not a kennel club breeder but someone who loved the breed. She was very careful selecting the sire for her bitch.

Thank you Swimming and Bitey, that's useful to know. I hadn't realised the extent of the differences between working and show Cockers.

OP - this is a good website for info on Cavaliers including articles about the various health conditions www.cavaliers.co.uk

Swimming My Cav is of the mainly solid but with a bit of white type. Probably why he is relatively healthy.

I have a cavalier - she's 8 now with no signs of any health issues.

She's great - not too barky, loves affection and is happy to sit with you all evening so lives up to her breeding as a lap dog. She's clever enough to learn a range of commands quickly enough. knows the difference between the command "sit" and "go sit". for go sit she sits where you point to. She guards the food but in a non agressive way as in she sits and watches the cat eat from it.

The shedding can be an issue but it is only a few times a year and is not constant so that makes it bearable.

In my opinion they have to be a house pet - they're not hardy enough to be kept anywhere else.

Mine too is the white and tan one - the blenheim colouring I think it is referred to.