Milo and the behaviour therapist

[joystir59]

We had a 3 hour session with a dog behaviourist yesterday- thats myself OH and our Jack Russell Milo. We found our that we've been letting a 7kg dog rule the entire house and that he has been struggling somewhat with his role in life and hence the behaviour- growling barking excessivly going berserk at every sound and at the door, ripping up the post and last but most seriously, biting every member of the household. It is so quiet today since we got retrained and took back control. Why did it take a lot of money for us to realise what we were doing wrong? We've had him ten months and have spent the whole time letting him tell us what he wants to do and not do because, ahh, the poor boy has really suffered!

And he is loyal and loving and very entertaining.

He sounds like a fab dog and is obviously very well loved :) I really do hope that your current solution works out for you.

However, just to reiterate, I don't think I know best at all. I think modern trainers do.

My guess is that the unwanted behaviour, or similar, will resurface at some point and your trainer will recommend that you deal with it by escalating the aversives. E.g. Bag of chains doesn't work any more? Try spraying with water. That doesn't work? Try blasting an airhorn. Again, they are not helping you deal with the reason behind the behaviour, they are just giving you tools to temporarily suppress it.

I really hope it does work out for you and that the problem does not come back. However, why not at least read up about more modern methods to find out why 'being the leader' and use of aversives are considered to be out of date and are not taught in any respected dog behaviourist training any more. There is loads of info online but here is a basic one with good links to evidence thehappypuppysite.com/the-evidence-for-positive-reinforcement-training-in-dogs/

Also trainers like Nando Brown are good to watch.

I really do mean to be helpful not know-it-all. Perhaps just keep the positive route in mind as an avenue to explore if your current training does not prove effective in the long term. Unfortunately the behaviours will be more entrenched by then and more difficult to deal with but you sound like you are pretty sure about your POV so no point pushing any more.
Even though you don't live nearby anymore, I'm sure Battersea would still offer advice or be able to recommend a local trainer if needed in the future.

Genuinely - Best of luck

What Laurel said

No one suggested you were trying to ‘dominate’ Him but your trainer clearly subscribed to dominance theory and thinks dogs have pack leaders and linear hierarchies (all of which have been debunked) otherwise she wouldn’t be suggesting meaningless exercises like walking through doors first. Yes all dogs need some boundaries and structure - but ideally your training should be focussed on resource facilitation to achieve common goals not resource restriction to ‘enhance’ your perception of your leadership.
Look up earn to learn
www.apbc.org.uk/articles

Is she an APBC member? They’re The uk accrediting body for behaviourists
www.apbc.org.uk/articles

• if she’s not then i’d strongly suspect that actually there are people on this thread that do ‘know better’

otherwise she wouldn’t be suggesting meaningless exercises like walking through doors first

Not meaningless - teaches them control and stops them running out of doors into potential danger. A lot of trainers will teach you to make your dog wait calmly until you are through a door before they enter. Its not a dominance issue, its a common sense, ease of life issue!

“Not meaningless”

Meaningless as anything other than getting them not to go through doors first...

If you go to see someone because you’re having issues with your dog shoving past you in doorways and going on the couch when you don’t want them to, then showing you how to train them to wait before going through doors and not to go in the couch whenever they want to is great.

It is meaningless behaviour though if the issue you want to resolve is something else entirely.

Nesssie
Do explain the mechanism by which
Making the dog follow you every where instead of going in front. Making them wait not just get on the sofa. Making a kind of growling noise to correct them when growling or barking. Dropping keys next to them to stop them barking. Making them wait to come into your space.

Addressees noise reactivity or human-directed aggression?

So, what was actually happening which lead to the shows of aggression and biting everybody in the household?

The actual circumstances. Not the theory of what was happening.

And what happens after the chain-dropping stops the barking?

My dog did the kennel club good citizen award and the waiting to be invited through the door is one of the task for bronze level.

Also the dropping something that makes a noise is surely no different from using a whistle for recall it's not aversion but to get the dogs attention?

Leo90 Yes it is one of the practical exercises for the bronze level, where it's the whole point of the exercise, not a cure for 'dominance'. In the silver level this builds on to control entering and exiting a vehicle.

No, the key dropping is not the same as using a whistle for recall. One is a signal used to elicit a desired behaviour through pleasant associations and the other is used to temporarily interrupt an undesired behaviour through unpleasant associations.

With the aversive, it is what comes after the key throw that is important and timing is everything.

Since it is much easier to train a dog to do something than to train it to stop doing something, shortcuts appear, using aversive methods which can cause loss of trust, stress and fear responses in the animals they're used on.

Suddenly everyone's a trainer... without even meeting the dog...
I'd run op and take your dog with you (but make sure you don't drop any keys on the way..]

I note you dodn’t Actually answer my question Nessie
Suddenly everyone's a trainer... hmm without even meeting the dog

Well yes actually. And Oddly enough this is why don’t need to meet the dog to know that the methods used are unlikely to be a long term fix.

Leo training impulse control is very important - you can do this in a viariety of ways - preferably br training ‘focus’ instruction, and then by working up to asking the dog to cooperate with you .g. To wait calmly in an exciting situation to achieve a reward. This is all part of the ‘learn to earn’ approach and is useful as part of a collaborative partnership as I mentioned above - however it’s often misused to establish heirarchy (see the links I posted above) This difference seems subtle from the human point of view but does have long term implications for the dog’s understanding and behaviour.

Milo is rewarded with positive attention and affection when he stops barking and listens, when he waits for permission to enter a room or come up onto the sofa, when he stops barking at a noise or someone knocking at the door, when he stops jumping up between us if we show each other affection. He loves positive attention, praise and affection. He is happier and more relaxed since we interrupt and halt all his attempts to control us or the entire household. We have had to cut his food rations because he is not using so much energy in charging up and down the stairs and in general state of high anxiety. He is less aggressive towards us as a result of the above. However, we do now use a muzzle when handling him, when walking where there are children when travelling in the car and in all and every situation where he could bite.

I would say he is very much enjoying being a dog rather than attempting the impossible task of running the whole show. He is much more playful and softer and we feel the bond of trust and love has deepened. He finally starts to feel like our dog after almost 11 months.

Dogs don't try to 'run the whole show'. They just don't.

Until they grow opposable thumbs and can work the cashpoint it isn't going to happen.

Why Won't Dominance Die?

Milo did try to guard everything including us. That's what I mean by running the show. We were passively waiting and hoping for his behaviour to improve