Advice re my dog which has unfortunately bitten another dog

[hmcAsWas]

Long sorry !

My dog, who is 4 in January, bit another dog on a group walk yesterday (with the dog walker) in an altercation over a ball. Unfortunately the other dog requires sutures . The other dog was also on the group walk and this poor dog and my dog have been on several other walks together previously without any issues.

My dog has no form for this. He is walked off lead in the countryside and invariably greets other dogs in a friendly way - with only one or two occasions where he hasn't like another dog and has growled at them (but never been violent), so I am horrified and shocked by this turn of events.

The dog walker phoned me yesterday - the other owner is very upset (understandably) and also does not want to claim off her insurance for vet costs (again, understandably). I said that I presumed my insurance would cover it as third party liability. I have spoken to my insurance today and they wont advise me because the insurance is in my husband's name and so he has to speak to them. I can't track him down at the moment and am impatient to get to the bottom of this....

I did find an exclusion in my policy :

What we will not pay - applying to Third Party Liability

1. Any costs.. .resulting from an incident which takes place when your pet is in the care of a business or professional and you are paying for their services

So it sounds like it may not be covered? Is the expectation that the Dog Walking service will pay from their insurance?

On a separate and related note, I have made an appointment to see the vet (tomorrow) to discuss this incident and get advice concerning whether my dog needs to see a behaviourist or similar?

Any advice from any dog owners who may have insight or experience in this area?

So as not to drip feed - my dog is obsessed over balls and sticks and will try and take them off other dogs but it has always been a bit of game for him, he has not been aggressive before, just he has sometimes taken a ball and its been a hassle to get it off him and return it to its rightful owner. I now routinely put him on a lead when another dog approaches with a ball to avoid the hassle... I have previously joked that balls and sticks are like crack cocaine to him....but now that's no longer funny / a joking matter

I am wondering if I can assume he may only be aggressive in ball / stick incidents and is otherwise 'safe'?

This if definitely on the dog walker's insurance. You weren't there so it's not your fault.
Dont feel too bad, they are dogs. This is what dogs occasionally do. Dont anthropomorphise it.
The other dog will be fine. It's not very pleasant for it, but dogs don't bear a grudge. It's a inconvenience for the owners, they will have a few vet appointments, but it's part of dog ownership.

Glad that sensible approach worked for your dog Coco

Thanks fruitbrewhaha - I think I have been anthropomorphising it

Of course you feel bad but this is one of those things. It's not a case of your dog being badly brought up!
I worry about dog walkers. Too many dogs and not enough hands/eyes. Things happen quickly.

Meant to add that she passed by a couple of dogs holding onto their balls🙄 this morning at our local country park without reacting but I haven’t yet taken her to our village space where much ball chasing goes on. I will keep her on a long line until I work out whether she will obsess over any ball or just her own. OP, agree that your dog walker should claim on her insurance but it does sound as though your dog needs a ball free walk although very difficult to guarantee in places where there are other dog walkers about.

I have a dog aggressive dog and my dog walker walks my dogs on their own. She loves my dog even though he's a pain and I trust her with him and his issues.

Sorry it's happened to you, it's very upsetting.

Third party liability insurance for dogs doesn't work in the same way as on, for example, cars, knock for knock. It's really designed for large damages claims.

Insurance companies won't pay out unless it's proven that you are liable, in most cases by going through the courts. Of course they don't actually want to pay out - what insurance company does? - so they will fight to prove you are not liable so they don't have to. Of course having been proven to not be liable, you won't have to pay out either.

In this case, two off-lead dogs squabbling over a chance discovery of a toy when neither has a history of 'violence', I doubt either owner's insurance company will be interested.

I don't know how the dog walker's insurance would work; presumably the same burden of proof of liability or negligence will apply. She didn't provide the ball or initiate the game; could she reasonably be expected to predict and prevent such an incident? Such things can and do happen in seconds, even between dogs who live together harmoniously for years. Unless dogs were off lead which she has been instructed to keep on lead or there has been some other contravention of requests from her customers then it's a case of 'dogs will be dogs'.

In the case of minor 'dog on dog' incidents like this it's a complete minefield. As the 'other' dog presumably tried to take the ball from the OP's dog, he could be seen as provoking the incident and the bite, and the arguments could go on for years. It's probably best for both owners to suck it up - these things happen - and agree the 'other' dog's owners claim on their insurance and the OP pay their excess.

Any comments regarding the future hypothetical presence of children just wind people up. This was a case of a spat between dogs, and dogs don't always agree or like other dogs any more than we get on with every person. It's not a signal that one or both of these dogs will go on to mow down children in their paths.

Shes being a cheeky fucker, if she was walking them as part of her business then thats what her insurance is for, not your fault op but i would try and get the stick/ball habit under control! And find another dog walker as i dont think she will offer to walk yours again.....

Thanks all - Shambolical, that's an interesting insight into how insurance companies might treat this case

A spat between two off lead dogs wouldn't worry me too much. Sometimes these things just happen!

If it were my dog who was bitten I would expect to claim it from my own insurance as it's the risk you take when you allow your dog to walk off lead with others. Who is to say it's your dog who started the altercation anyway?

I would at most agree to pay half as a gesture of goodwill but no way would I pay the full bill when both dogs were off lead and under someone else's supervision.

I also deem it the dog walkers responsibility. She was a professional in charge of the dogs - it's a business risk and that's why dog walkers should have insurance that covers injury of animals in their care, as well as standard third party liability.

Also a dog who has shown strong guarding tendencies and/or aggression to another dog, but not a human, is highly unlikely to harm a human. The only way the child bit raised above would be at all relevant is if the dog has shown those behaviours to people not just another dog(s).

There is lots of information on resource guarding on the Dog Training and Advice Uk group on facebook, also muzzle training if you choose to do it until you've cracked the guarding.

Sorry, should be Dog Training Advice and Support.

Thanks Russell, I will take a look at that group.

Apparently dog walkers insurance is for public liability and doesn't cover for dog injuries whilst in their care (unless they were negligent)

Other dog owner not willing to claim on insurance. Worried about premiums.

My insurers wont cover it as it happened under a paid professionals care. So I have just paid £800 to other dog owners account (don't worry - I have seen the invoices). The costs mounted up because her dog was given a GA for the suturing.

Yes possibly I am an idiot for just paying out but I just want this over, and at least I have behaved 'honourably' I suppose. Although who needs a bill like that just prior to Christmas

Vet appointment to discuss my dogs behaviour and way forward (and prevention of possible future incidents) is at 11 today.

Not using the dog walking service because whilst they would have him back, he would need to wear a muzzle whereas I think he can be managed safely on a one to one dog walk without a muzzle. My housesitting lady is going to pick up those walks. I have made her fully aware.

Other dog is recovering well - which is good.

Thanks for the help and advice

Just to add - I think group walking has been a factor for my dog. I think he fancies himself as the Alpha male within that pack. Another good reason not to walk him in a group situation again.

Well this is a lesson about checking the insurance of anyone walking your dog . Personally I’d risk whatever the small amount is to take the walker to small claims to see if you can recover some of the money and I’d also then be publicising the fact locally that this person has inadequate coverage . A dog bites another dog when she is in charge then she is responsible be that negligence or not supervising properly .

I'm somewhat horrified you've paid, just because the dog walker failed to take out adequate insurance. The reason your insurance doesn't cover it is because you are not liable and dog walker is liable (she was a professional incharge of your animal) and she should have accident cover on the animals she is in charge of. If she has chosen to not bother with the correct insurance (it's quite a bit more expensive than taking out a 3rd party liability) then she takes the risk that she will be left with a huge bill when an accident occurs on her watch.

I'd also be taking to small claims court. Or asking your insurance (home not just pet) whether since she has basically made you pay, that they can claim it back.

Also did she give your details to the other owner and of so had she asked permission? Otherwise she's breeched data protection, as you are in no way liable, there was no reasonable reason to pass your details on.

She didn't give my details to the other owner.

I know.......its just that she and her 2 colleagues are well known and liked locally. Its a small community. Its not worth a fight. I will be telling my friends who use her however about what the cover is, and how this leaves them exposed should they find themselves in a similar situation (or if their dog gets injured)

I agree that it is a lesson about checking the insurance of anyone walking your dog - I will be sharing that particular lesson

Wow. I wouldn't pay that. It would have been lovely to offer half. But to cover the whole cost? They chose this dog walker and trusted them. You weren't even present.
I would look for a behaviourist. Your comment about alpha male and pack is worrying. You knew dominance theory is rubbish yes?

The vet has recommended a behaviourist - used by the Senior Partner at the vets for his dog

I've just had a quick google - don't read too much into my use of that expression. I don't do a Caesar Milan on my dog and try and subordinate him. I personally adopt the approach of encouraging positive behaviour through reward and positive reinforcement with both my dogs. I used the expression 'alpha male' as a shorthand way of saying I suspect that my dog might have wanted to assert himself as somehow in charge and not to be challenged, in the pack of dogs he walked with. They were mostly the same set of dogs walked each time together. This of course might be nonsense - its just conjecture as I desperately try and fathom out why on earth he did what he did

Of course you want to know why it happened and I do hope I wasn't somehow accusing you of mistreating him by trying to be the boss. Not my intention at all!!
Of course you can't know. He has not done it before and you weren't there and didn't see it. He could have been startled. The other dog could have snatched it. He could have gone to snatch it back and missed. He could have been stepped on or something and hurt.
Hope the other dog recovers well and you can get support to move forwards.

I do think you're being a bit dramatic about this, sorry. Dogs will be dogs, you can't expect them to never spat. What are you taking him to the vet for exactly? Acting like an animal?