18 month old lab barking and lunging at dogs when on lead

[WonderOnTheUp]

Hi, my 18 month old lab has always been very excitable on his walks, despite numerous training classes, one to one with a behaviourist and trying to put the techniques into practice he is still a nightmare to walk and I dread taking him on walks. The behaviourist said he was very rude and had bad dog manners. She also recommend using a head collar while trying to keep his focus on me around dogs. The problem with this is he despises it and spends much of the walk trying to scratch it off or running his head into the back of my legs. Food treats do not seem enough to distract him either and he's not really interested in toys. I have another dog so still walking both separately as he is so strong that I struggle to manage him on walks. I try to choose times of day when places are quieter, when it's raining etc but not sure if this makes it worse as he's seeing less dogs so when he does see them he gets carried away!

The barking seems to be more in frustration that he wants to get to them and play but as he's so full on I don't let him play off lead with other dogs unless he knows them and keep him on lead around other dogs as don't want him to stress out other dogs (have previously had a reactive dog so very conscious not to allow him to bound up to other dogs).

DH says I'm too paranoid and need to relax more which I think is part of the problem as his attitude is dogs bark so just accept it whereas I want to work on things to improve this.

For completeness, he is still entire (in contract we are not allowed to neuter him before 18 months old) and we are considering this but worry it may make him worse.

Does anyone have any advice or any positive success stories they would like to share please?

Some extra information (and a hopeful bump)...he gets on fine with our other male (neutured) dog, 2 cats and DS9. He's never bitten or been bitten but dogs generally do not react well to him so we keep our distance where possible.

Ah it's so difficult isn't it. The dog experts bang on about reading their body language etc but it all happens so quickly and I know I could never read an approaching dog faster than my dogs can.

It is true that your dog will be affected by your stressed reaction to him meeting other dogs.
If his behaviour is excitement, rather than aggression, as you say, then you should definitely find a socialisation class, where he can learn to play appropriately. A decent dog walker, and maybe a few daycare sessions could help too.
He's very young and needs to learn how to behave appropriately around other dogs.

I know his type. I saw one knock a passerby out of a wheelchair and onto the pavement recently, lunging at a passing dog. I often find entire male labs very bullish and "testosteroney" and would suggest castration about six months ago immediately, though obviously that is only going to make a partial improvement at best. The thing is that he is not very young and his disrespect for you and everyone around him is well cemented.

Thank you both for your replies. Bullish is an accurate description for him. It's so frustrating, we've had him since 8 weeks and I really thought I'd done things properly from the beginning so we wouldn't end up with an unmanageable dog. Neutering will probably be a good option.

Any ideas on how to manage him/train him on walks?

I think that it is a common misconception that a puppy is a blank slate. In my experience, nurture modifies nature at best. He would likely be a real problem dog already without your efforts.

I recently castrated a similar animal and the owners have told me that he has become far more food-orientated which might be good for training purposes.

He obviously desperately needs some social lessons but I'm not sure how you would engineer it. He needs to be taught to back off and engage more respectfully, but few dogs have the size or inclination to face down a 40kg boor without it turning into a fight. No daycare is going to want to introduce him into a happy, stable group. Anyway, get his nuts off and keep on with your behaviourist. Good luck.

How about finding him a safe space to run off some steam?
Group training (or would he be bonkers?)
Allow him to see dogs in the distance and reward focus on you. If treats don't do it pick a higher value treat or try a toy?
I use a dogmatic on my 50kg wolfhound. For just the lunging moments you describe. She's only a year. We're working on it!

I wonder if the breeders might be of any help to you? Especially as they seem to have been rather prescriptive wrt neutering (contract?). Maybe they will swap him for a lovely docile bitch?!
I'm interested to know what his parents are like and also how you went about choosing him. Was he a very confident puppy?

There’s an excellent Facebook group called dog training advice and support, ask on there for some techniques and also they’ll be able to help you understand why he’s behaving this was

Neutering as a tool to manage undesirable behaviours seems to be a controversial subject these days.

Thank you villainousbroodmare. I'm definitely going to book him for castration and also for more training with the behaviourist.

With regards the breeder, I have gone back a few times but his view of him is rather different to mine and there are st least two males from that litter who are more of a handful than mine!! I had originally wanted a bitch and the one I chose was eventually kept by the breeder and she is a sweet, gentle girl. Mum of litter is bright, friendly and well trained, she was so gentle with my son. Dad I did not meet. There have been various other dealings with breeder which I've found stressful, pressure to show him and being told off for teaching him to sit and not stand being a couple that I'm trying to create some distance if possible. We did want another dog and a Labrador was the breed of choice as my large male rescue dog and has a similar play style, I had one growing up, had researched and thought a lab would be a good match for us. My other dog is so much happier with having a companion and they adore one another. In the house, he behaves well and is very respectful of the cats (boss cat, who is no longer with us made sure of that! ) and he adores DS. It's out and about he's a nightmare!!

Thanks Wolfiefan. I can imagine a 50kg dog takes some holding if he decides to lunge!! We tried a dogmatic but he really struggles with any form of head collar. Maybe I should go back to do some more work on him getting used to one as it will help me while I'm still attempting to train him I'm sure.

Thank you Haint, I'll look up the group.

She certainly does. Shame we can't get the hooligans together!
The other thing that worked when mine was first learning to walk on a lead was to make a loop of the lead and pass it found the chest. Stopped her pulling. Wonder if a harness would work. I know that FB group recommend them.

I think if you can, really work hard to find something that motivates him. You say he isn't good motivated, but have you tried freshly cooked gammon? Hot dogs? Dried fish? Google high value treats and work through them. As a lab, I'd be surprised if there wasn't anything he really loves.

Google iyc (its yer choice) game and play it with him regularly. You might be able to start to play the game out and about and then eventually with dogs in the distance.

His reward is going closer to dogs, so only let him go closer if he's calm. If he's not, stop or walk the other way.

With the head harness, try to put it on him for lots of little sessions in the day at home. Maybe stick it on him just before you give him his dinner, and take off afterwards?

I wonder whether gundog training would catch his interest? I once saw a working lab retrieving shot geese from a partially frozen lake. He smashed his way from the edge like an icebreaking ship, retrieved the goose and I don't know whether it was because he had a faceful of feathers and couldn't see, or just because he could but he broke a separate channel through the ice to bring the bird back. Very tenacious performance but I remember thinking that that intense drive, his physical power and total indifference to discomfort all added up to an extraordinary working dog, but a very difficult pet.
There is a good book by a lady called Lez Graham called the Pet Gundog. I used it a lot but I'll admit that my setter is a very different character to your lab.

He is actually a demon in the water! Such a strong swimmer eith a huge drive to be the first to reach the dummy! His ability to return it to me is somewhat lacking! you may be onto something with gundog training though so I'll definitely look that up!

Wolfiefan If you are ever in South Wales and your dog wants to play with mine then give me a shout!

Rubberduckies Thanks for your advice and tips to get him used to a head collar, will definitely give them a go

Wonder we are in Glos so not so far away!

You could always try a Suprelorin implant to see how neutering will affect him. It is reversible if it makes no difference.

I've had good results with training by making sure PearlDog is REALLY hungry when we walk, and having very high value food on offer.

He's much better now, and I can even get away with using kibble as a distraction if he's peckish, but in the early days Stilton cheese and an empty stomach worked wonders!

I'd stop using the headcollar out on walks for the moment. If he's so pre-occupied with getting it off then although he may be easier to control he's not actually going to be learning anything. A good harness with a double ended lead (one end attached at the normal point and the other end to an extra ring at the front of his chest) will give you more control without distracting him so much.

Do some on his impulse control at home (I always recommend the as a great starting point) and also work on building his engagement with you. You want him to think before acts and also look to you for interaction on walks because it's so rewarding (both in terms of treats and fun for him) to do so. The Denise Fenzi 'Dog Sports Skills' series of books is absolutely excellent for this. 'Control Unleashed' by Leslie McDevitt is another really good book for both teaching impulse control and increasing your dog's focus around distractions.

I also agree that doing something like gundog training or some other activity (agility, scentwork, rally, etc. are all worth investigating) is a good idea.

Thank you for all the suggestions. Just an update - we've had much better walks the past two days! I've been playing the "it's yer choice" game which he's picked up quickly, we have seen other dogs on leads but haven't been close enough (6 ft or so away) or walking past them on the same pavement for him to react. I've been able to reward him for looking but not barking. We've had some lovely play sessions with the ball which he loved and recalled well. I'm definitely feeling more positive and really appreciate all your advice. I took on board the tip about keeping him hungry before the walk and that also seems to work as he's far more interested in the treats now! He's also signed up for more training classes and a scentwork workshop so hopefully I can get him to engage his brain!!

Terrific!