Puppy Survival thread part 4

[GooodMythicalMorning]

Puppy's getting bigger!: continuation of Bitey's thread. If anyone wants to join feel free.

Oh poor you and poor biteydog that doesn't sound much fun for either of you. I do think if DH puts in a bit of time he'll form a bond. I think it doesn't help DH that the kids interest is limited even though they were desperate for a dog (which doesn't surprise me at all tbh; I think a kids idea of a puppy and the reality are poles apart). I think if they were head over heels in love with the pup he would soften a bit quicker.

You dog sounds like a dream wolfiefan! Hopefully we'll get there too with some hard work in the mean time, although I'll currently settle for not eating stones and cat poo. I don't think I've shed so many tears in ten years as I have in one week!

Mine who is 10 months old now seems to have got some sort of secondary teething stage (is that a thing?) all of a sudden he has started chewing all things he chewed when little eg. shoes, table legs etc. Really seems he has an itch

Other than that he has been good but glad that kids are back at school today to get some or routine going again. He was back on the long line after holiday as he had been on short lead for most of the holiday poor thing. First day back in the park he didn't listen to me at all but yesterday he was much better again. I veer between oh he'll be off the lead like all those great dogs we see in the park to he's never ever going to have a reliable re-call

So sorry to hear about your hard times Bitey and Monkey, much love from yokopup xx

Yoko mine has started chomping on stones again and chewing toys he has ignored for months so maybe it is another phase.

Over the past few days I have heard another dog barking and howling for hours quite close by. Does anyone else worry that the neighbours will think it's their dog? The noise doesn't bother me it's just that I am worried people will think it is mine and that I am ignoring him.

Bitey - YES we have another dog in the neighbourhood that seems to bark endlessly...I know that my closest neighbours know that it's not ours as we don't tend to leave him in the garden and if he starts barking at something I take him in. I just find it quite stressful to listen to, poor doggy

Now that I have a dog I have realised that almost every other house on our street have dogs, never noticed before

Any tips on putting eye drops in single handed to a dog that is already pissed off with all the manhandling he has had recently

Bitey - I had to wait until he was asleep then creep up on him and drop it in...I am sure there are better ways! Good luck

That might work for his night time dose . This time I wrestled him in between my legs put them in and gave him chicken after as a treat. I think I am vaguely forgiven as he loves chicken

Hello all. I've namechanged to post this: the regulars will recognise me I think, but I think I need this under another name for my own sanity, so please don’t out me. Although even on this thread I've been putting a brave face on our issues and not telling the whole story! We are having real issues and concerns with our pup, and have been in contact with the breeder who is happy to take him back (dog-obsessive house in the country - she said will keep him, or rehome with an experienced no-children family). I'm (unbelievably) seriously considering it, and could do with talking it through. I expect some flaming. You won't be saying anything I am not saying to myself! I'm posting on here rather than doghouse generally, as I think/hope this is a slightly more supportive space.

So: here's our history. Our pup has been anxious from very early on, and we've worked with a behaviouralist from when he was 13 weeks, trying to build his confidence and help him cope with life. We've worked with the behaviouralist on an ongoing basis (twice weekly at first, every fortnight now) and pup has made massive, massive progress and is coping with a million things that I wouldn't have imagined possible. But he's coming up to 7 months now, and his nervousness is still very evident: especially around strangers and being touched.

The trigger to our concern/issue currently is that over the last week, he's snapped once at ds (making teeth contact but no marks; for ref, ds is a very calm, quiet teen) and once at me (no teeth contact). Both times were for contact issues (picking up: something we do regularly with him, and had trained through as initially he hated it). We've had snapping incidents before: one with a stranger was more serious (left scratches), one was with dh (contact, no mark), and another couple with ds. Again, driven by contact/handling issues, I'd say. They are definitely 'get off me' responses, not play - and he has not bitten in a puppy-play sort of a way really for a few months now.

I saw our lovely behaviouralist again today, and whilst she absolutely was not judgemental at all (bless her) she does think we can work through this: but I'd need to do lots of management, and I need to think whether that is realistic for all of us as a family. So for example, we'd need to not let the kids friends come over without me here to supervise (kids are secondary school age); manage his stress levels (so if he has a busy day, we give him a couple of 'down days' etc); give him lots of space and accept he'll always need that. She also said I had to think about us as a family, as well as him: that if we were going to struggle and be constantly stressed to try and make it work, that didn't count as a good solution!

I am worrying our pup is in the wrong place for him: I am not reading him well enough to keep his stress levels low enough; and however hard we try, we are putting him in situations that scare him too much. We've really tried to keep his stress low: I've not worked out of the house since we've had him, unless dh can have him (I am SE so that has been just manageable); cancelled a holiday; rearranged the kids lives to make everything as easy for him as I can (e.g. no holiday sleepovers this summer)... and it doesn't feel like we've done enough. And I also worry that the impact of managing him will have on our family could be too much: DS is waiting for an autism diagnosis - the idea of making his friendships harder is tough (pup barks wildly at people coming into the house and some of his mates won't cope with that. I had sort of trained through that, but it's come back :-(

He is, obviously, the best dog in the world (ongoing star of his obedience classes!), and deserves us doing the right thing for him. I'm just not sure where to go from here.

Any thoughts...??

Hard one because it sounds like you have tried lots to rectify it so no flaming here if you put your hands up and say you can't do anymore. However, on the other hand 7 months is a shitty age even for puppies that don't have those issues and maybe managing the next 6 months might get you to a much better place as my dog was an absolute nightmare from 6 months onwards and is a different dog now at 11 months.

I think I would ask myself the following questions. Am I happy with the behaviourist (would I want a second opinion)? Is it the right thing for everyone including the dog to continue? Could I be sure if I rehomed that he went to somewhere that would give him a good home, more importantly a better home that I could give him?

Take the hard hat off! You are doing everything you can possibly do. I think you have to consider how and if you can manage these issues. So nobody picks pup up for eg. Stairgates. Quiet space.
If you really feel that you can't provide what he needs then a "special" home that can cater to him may be better.
Sorry. There is no easy answer.

Haven't been on here much recently as work has taken over a bit but just seen your post Sad and had to reply. I do recognise you and know how hard you have worked with puppy. In terms of how things are going, could you give him up to a year? 7 months we had an awful phase where he was so frightened of everything and everyone. He's really settled a lot now and becomes more confident daily.

I have another dog who is nervous of people/dogs and I just can't trust him around strangers. We have worked this out now and just put him away whenever anyone is round.

What I would say though is even though you love him dearly, you hbe to consider his stress levels and if you genuinely believe your home is a stressful environment for him just due to the nature of family life then it might be kinder to let him have a life where he doesn't have to deal with that daily. He's not going to care really as he'll bond with the new owner just as much and although very upsetting for you I guess you have to consider the impact on your life. It sounds like he's a complex character and it's going to take time and a lot of work to help him if so.

Thanks guys: I wrote that post out so many times and was scared of what I'd hear back and your support and kindness means a lot.

To respond to your thoughts in a random way.

• we are trying to factor in 'teenagedom' - and we've certainly got minor teenage stuff going on (back on the long lead at the mo!) but overall, I'd say he's a pretty chilled teen (if you leave him in a quiet room with his family!) ... and the underlying response to strangers is not new, and something that I don't think I can expect to change dramatically. And I guess I am thinking I need to think worst case scenario, and whether we can work with that.
• A huge bit of me wants to wait and see! But giving him up now will be the hardest thing I've ever done. Having another 3-4 months and I think i'd just never do it: and I need to think whether that's fair on the kids (no mates over without me supervising; no overseas hols as a family; very occasional days out - there's no-one else I'd trust with him except my behaviourists...family live too far away, and wouldn't be trusted not to react to him badly I think)
• Do I need a second opinion? Luckily, my groomer is also a behaviouralist (& we do a weekly training class with her). I'm seeing her today. I suspect she'll be more relaxed (I've talked to her about him snapping before and she's not been too worried!) - but she doesn't know him as well/hasn't seen him at his worst. I am absolutely going to see what she thinks though. AND I'm doing a session with another dog expert on Saturday - not aimed at his issues, just a general thing - so I may be able to sound him out too.
• Stairgates and lots of quiet time: check, all in place and always have been. Problem is he's in the kitchen (no other option really) and try and keep teens out of the kitchen ;-)
• Could I be sure he'll go to a better home: god, there's the issue! My lovely behaviouralist did say that she'd never seen any family work so hard (she probably says that to all the girls!!) - and I do feel we increasingly get him. I wonder how many snaps I've avoided! But what he needs is lots of calm and predictability. Not the easiest thing in a two teen household. Could we do it? We have tried for the last few months, but even then we've clearly gone over threshold too many times. And is it fair on the kids (& dh is mourning the idea of no overseas hols for 10 years!) We've made sure he has had a mega quiet week and he's SO much calmer and happier. But even so he barked frantically at the behaviouralist (who obviously he knows!) when she came in and was really stressed. Although this morning the boilerman got a much shorter bark. Honestly, his every move is scrutinised at the moment poor chap!

Skeleton: it's tough to read (he loves meeeeeeee!) but I will try and remember that he could love someone else

My heart 100% is keeping him - no bloody question. My head is in a very different place. And God, the idea of telling the kids! They have been protected from the worst of our worries, and think he's the best dog in the world. And I don't want ds to blame himself (he's very conscious that he's most bitten/snapped at). But on the other hand if we got it wrong and he bit someone 1 month, 3 months, 4 years down the line...

sad it's so hard because I only had the usual teenage stuff and with just that I was thinking how the hell will I get through the next week let alone the next few months and years. Even now when presented with new issues I have a slight panic about how I am going to cope. So I don't know how I would feel with extra behavioural issues on top of it.

I do wonder if there are places that would care for such a dog whilst you had a holiday. Maybe email out to ask a few boarding places, behaviourists etc as even if they would not take him on they may know people who would. I know you said you would not trust anyone else with him but some of that is just normal leaving the dog worries and getting a proper break can make things seem a lot easier.

Sad i have no advice for you but my heart breaks for the you. It is such a tough decision to have to be in and I honestly do not think any sane person would judge you. You have tried your very best. The fact that you are thinking about your dogs feeli gs and how he is coping/going to cope in the future says a lot about you! Not everyone puts the dogs feelings at the fore front.
My friend rehomed her pup because of a huge change in circumstances. She spent a while looking for just the right home. In the end he went to a lovely retired couple who could give him 100% of there time if needed. My friend is in regular contact with them and still occasionally see him.
You are doing your absolute best

Sad your post really resonates with me. I also have a pup with anxiety issues identified early on. Bluepuppy is different in that he not nippy at all and loves strangers and kids. I did have the dreaded phone call from the neighbour about him crying while alone though.

I've been where you are and close to not keeping pup. Just feeling like I was prepared not to keep him made me feel terrible. I've always been a 'pet is for life' kind of person but my experience with Bluepuppy made me realise that real life isn't always that black and white.

Have you considered medication? I took Bluepuppy to a specialist vet and he's now taking prozac and clonidine while I Work on his behaviour.
His personality hasn't changed but he no longer panics and cries when left alone. The vet explained that I had done everything right but often anxiety is a genetic issue and training can only do so much.

It sounds like you're a wonderful and caring owner but if you're not happy and the dog isn't happy then it's okay to consider a new home.

sobbing into tissues here, thanks SO much for all the support and perspectives. It really helps. Especially knowing that doggy people won't all think I'm the world's worst shit if we don't keep him - which is how I'm feeling!

So, behaviourist 2 had (as I anticipated) a more 'robust' opinion: that we just need to keep handling him more and more, and ignore the growls - that he needs to understand that even if he doesn't like being picked up/held, it's just going to happen, and it's fine. She did some handling with him and he was really unhappy: lots of growls, but it didn't escalate beyond that. Her approach would be to push through, but I just don't feel right with that - I want him to work from a positive place, and he wasn't looking positive! I can believe that we can do more positive work with handling (chicken/clicker, which is what we have been trying, and has worked to a degree) but I think even so, when handling is combined with new people/stressful situations, then it's still potentially going to press his buttons. I think!

Blue: I knew you would empathise, and your struggles have resonated so much with me and kept me going! No, medication is a route we haven't gone down as yet. Perhaps it's something I need to think about in the mix.

Bitey: yes, you may be right that I need to let go and acknowledge other people could cope with him! I am putting together a list of questions for my (main, totally force free) behaviouralist, and that's one of them. I trust her to think of places that would potentially work for him.

I'm going to give myself today 'off' mentally (apart from anything else, I have loads of neglected work i really need to catch up on!) then do lots of making of lists/talking to dh over the weekend. I'm also going to talk to the breeder early next week and make sure I understand what her approach would be for going forward, to help me have a sense of what his alternatives are.

Thanks lovely doggie-people, you don't know how much it means reading your kind comments :-)

You are as far from the world's shittest owner as you could be!!!
I don't like that ignore the growling advice either. It's generally the last defence. If that's ignored a dog may well bite.
Have a look at dog training advice and support on FB. They can also recommend trainers near you or who will travel. Very much force free and gentle methods.
Big girl is a year and so much calmer. Much better with strangers. She will still sometimes back off but used to spin at the end of the lead!
Tried adaptil? Had a vet check? Thundershirt?
Good luck.

BiteyDog is a bloody pain. He knows how to chew the connectors to his cone so the vet taped over them. Well that didn't help because he just bit the bloody tape off then the plastic cone.

So now I have to watch that he doesn't rub his eyes, lick his paw or lump

Yes, I wasn't happy with it either.

I'm on that FB group and our (main) behaviouralist - the one we've been working with - was listed on there, as was our initial puppy class. I've actually not checked this other one although her qualifications are solid.

Adaptil, check, been using since he was hummm, 12 weeks?! Although actually, we've used it little less lately and I'm not sure it massive makes a difference to him.

Vet check: was done initially (two different vets), we could consider another one (perhaps to discuss medication) - I'm pretty much confident it's not physical, but you never know.

Not tried Thundershirts yet.

Poor Bitey dog Are you back at work Bitey?

It can't hurt to ask the vet about medication sad. I've been told that Bluepuppy can hopefully be weaned of his eventually. I ended up taking him to a specialist behavioural vet as I wanted to be sure I was getting the best advice because of his age. He's one of her favourite patients as most of them aren't safe to have cuddles with like she does with him

Having to work from home as he is infectious to other dogs with his conjunctivitis :(

I just wish he would behave enough so that we can get him better.

You poor thing Bitey (and Bitey dog). Lucky you have the option to work from home. I'd have to call on my long suffering parents to help out in that situation.

I know even the 10 days before Bluepuppy's stitches came out from neutering nearly drove me mad.

Yes I am very fortunate I have the option to work at home but I am feeling a bit sorry for myself at the moment as I just seem trapped at home again because he can't go to daycare until his eyes are better and we can't go for big walks until his paw is better. I am hoping by the weekend his paw will be ok so at least I can tire him out more.

I saw your other thread blue and it does sound like bluepuppy is starting the teenage angst. Mine was always bottom of the class in training until we went to gun dog training where all the spaniels were equally as distracted

Bitey, poor pup and poor you, you have really been through the wringer. I hope things improve soon.

Sad, I know where you are coming from. DH and I ask each other every day if we should keep Pizzapup but neither of us can make a decision.

Pizzapup is a great dog, toilet trained, learning new commands every day, walks well on lead, great with kids.
Barks at all strangers, that's fine, it can be worked on.
The thing that is really dragging us down is her separation anxiety, she has destroyed half my house already. I did the whole leave for 5 mins then 10 mins etc and we got up to 3.5 hours! then it all went to shit and she jumped out our first floor window when DH left for work one day (onto porch roof then onto grass luckily)
Since then she has destroyed something each time we have left her. She has ripped down curtain poles, blinds, the letterbox,knocked the tv over. The list could go on.
Our trainer said leave her in her crate but she can open it from the inside. Dh also watched on the camera that she got her head stuck in the door and rushed home from work.

I really think she would be better off with another dog for company, she came from a shelter where she was with lots of other dogs so I really think she is missing company.

Deepfried do you have room in your garden for an outside dog house? You can get massive and I mean big wooden kennels for dogs (size varies but some are a lot larger than sheds) with inside and outside areas for when you leave her. Whilst it isn't any different to when you leave her in the house it does mean she would have a large place to roam about without destroying your home.

I am fortunate not just because I can send him to daycare but also he doesn't really destroy anything generally so I think the only thing he has ever chewed was a few door matts. I am not sure how I would feel if I opened the door to the house to keep seeing a lot of destruction as it's soul destroying and expensive.