Spaniels - show Cocker, show English Springer or Welsh Springer

[BLUEsNewSpringWatch]

So I want a second dog (first is a wonderful cavalier). I don't want a second lap dog, otherwise I would be buying another cavalier, so I'm thinking a bigger spaniel.

Currently I do 1.5hr walk in afternoon with Cavalier (pretty much all off road in fields and woods, around strems and lakes - so off lead too). I was planning to add a shorter walk in the mornings aswell (20-40mins). Plus i do some training and playing with cavalier every evening, once DC in bed. I'm home most of the time and have a 2yr old and 5yr old.

I know a couple of working cockers and they need much more than that, which I probably couldn't do reliably enough. So I thought about a show cocker but unsure of temperament- have heard they can be grumpy and that show English springers have a nicer temperament and would be ok with the above lifestyle. Then someone else said Welsh springer have a temperament close to the Cavalier and although they are a dual purpose breed (so have stamina to work) would be fine with the above lifestyle.

I've started researching but would really appreciate any views on temperament and exercise needs of these breeds.

There is an issue in some lines of show cockers with temperament issues (particularly resource guarding) but these can be avoided by going to a decent breeder who gives appropriate consideration to temperament. Cockers are very popular indeed, they've consistently been the second most registered breed in the UK for years (although I think this year they'll be pipped into third by French Bulldogs), and unfortunately the more popular a breed is the more people there are breeding them irresponsibly and the more common health and temperament issues become.

The Welsh Springer Club has some really good information about the breed on their site, including an 'Is a Welsh Springer for You?' page.

I'd recommend going along to some shows if you can and meeting as many dogs of the three breeds as possible and also chat with as many owners/breeders/breed enthusiasts as possible. The bigger championship shows are great for this and I've always found people really happy to have a natter about their dogs and breed once they've been in the ring. This is a list of the KC championship shows this years, there are still quite a few to go including a couple of gundog specific ones.

There's also Discover Dogs in London in October which is a great opportunity to meet different breeds and their human representatives. I went to the version they do at Crufts this year and it was immensely helpful. I went with a shortlist of breeds I would maybe like to own in the future and came away with one very strong contender, two possibles and several breeds completely discounted.

None. Spaniels are the devil's work.

Especially show cocker. You can have mine if you like.

Awww, not all show Cockers are mental. There's one under the desk here as I type having a nap. He's 5 months old and a bit poorly today due to the propensity to eat all kinds of crap but I can't imagine life without him already

My dog is friends with a fabulous Welsh springer - he's 10 years old now and still as energetic as ever. I'm not sure he'd be compatible with a cavalier to be honest as the exercise requirements would be quite divergent. He's a very independent character - when we go for walks in the woods he goes running off in huge circles with his nose down, coming back periodically to check in but he's out of sight for quite long periods. His recall is perfect so he always comes back when called but he's much more 'free-range' than my Toller

My dad got an ex show cocker and she is an absolute dream!
The breeder was very good though and asked a lot about their home life etc so that she could match them with the right dog.

I have a show Cocker - he's only 4 months old, but he's brilliant. He gets 3 walks a day (two short, one longer) and loves playing and cuddling. Other than that, he lazes around (usually within 2 feet of me). I have a 3.5yr old DD, and they adore each other - when she's having a meltdown, he snuggles up next to her and tries to cheer her up. He has a wonderful temperment - we chose our breeder specifically for this and were on a waiting list for a while (PM me if you'd like the breeder's details).

He doesn't get grumpy, but does sulk sometimes (eg, when he gets told off - this morning he sulked for 20 mins because I told him off for chewing the garden hose). He was incredibly hard work for the first few weeks, but once he settled in, he's been wonderful.

My previous dog was also a show cocker, and he was an absolute gem too (but much much much lazier).

We have a working cocker and a friend has a welsh springer. There is no real difference between them in terms of temperament and exercise need. Our working cocker gets a very similar level of exercise to your cavalier and he is fit and happy. He does also have free access to our garden though which is big. I think its not so much that they need hours of walking as that they need interaction and stimulation. If I doubled my Ddog's walk but then left him alone the rest of the time, he would be utterly miserable.

I wouldn't discount working cockers, I'd just make sure you didn't get one that came from strong working lines, although to be honest, breeders of that kind of dog don't tend to want them to go to non-working homes anyway.

There's a cocker lives near to us and it never stops yapping. I think it's just the dog as it gets plenty of walks and attention.

Thanks all.

noitsnot that's a common misconception about Cavaliers. Cavs like any spaniel are naturally high energy, excitable, springy dogs and can keep going all day, if you want them too. They learn to be calm at home through training (they are desperate to please, although you can often see the conflict in his head when you want him to be calm and he wants to please but he still wants to bounce around the room like tigger play). They also run through bushes, undergrowth, etc and bring half of the woodland back with them in their fur. The only low energy Cavs I know are very old or, as is far too common in Cavs, seriously obese - they are one of those breeds where people think they should look much wider/rounder than is any where near a healthy weight. As I said he already has a 1.5 hr walk almost entirely off lead (through fields and woodland) in the afternoon (which does not tire him out) and training/playtime with me in the evening. Plus now he is past being a puppy, I was planning to add another walk in the mornings of 20-40 mins. A couple of weeks ago we went on a big long hike in Shropshire hills (he was off lead most of the way) he was still as full of energy when we got back to the car. I think the biggest differences between cavs as a toy breed spaniel and a bigger spaniel are, no prey drive, lap magnets, so desperate to please their excitement is a bit easier to contain and they will settle for an hour walk and a cuddle if that's all you can give them. Plus where other spaniels go off following their nose to find prey, Cavs want to go off to find other people and dogs. His breeder made it clear that cavs should be high energy dogs who can keep up with much bigger dogs and that people commonly think because they are also lap dogs, they don't need much exercise and thus many are obese, which in turn makes them seem low energy, which means more people expect it and so on.

scandi that's interesting.

Having spoken to breed societies, and some well respected breeders. I have excluded the Welsh Springer on the grounds they are very very sensitive and easily upset, they are also apparently far more clingy to their human than a cavalier (said by a top breeder of Welsh springers who also owns Cavs). Apparently they would be fine on the level of physical exercise but do require a lot more mental exercise at home and don't tend to cope well with being shut away or crated whilst family eat (due to young DC and possibility of DD sneaking food to dog).

Show Type English Springer seems to be a good option, as does show cocker spaniel.

I'm actually going to see a litter of Cockers this afternoon. I found out that a very well respected breeder has a litter, with one left (it was a much larger litter than expected - 10pups). This breeder is vice president of two of the cocker spaniel breed clubs, a KC Assured Breeder (different to KC registered pups), and incredibly well respected in the show cocker spaniel world. She lives less than 30mins from me! It feels meant to be. I called her at the weekend and she questioned me extensively, before agreeing I could view. Fingers crossed we both like each other and pup will be mine. The colour wouldn't have been my first choice but finding a breeder like her is so hard, that I don't think colour matters (my cavalier was actually my last choice of colour (bought because his breeder was the best I could find) but I now like that colour cav best).

How exciting OP Keep us updated on what you decide.

@FiddleFigs how long do you walk your puppy for, as its meant to be 5 minutes per month of age. At four months, if they are having 3 walks a day, that could be too much. If you are doing it because they are still very active after the walks, try some mental stimulation games.

I have a 5 year old show spanner and she was BONKERS as a pup, until she was about 4? She has calmed down loads now she is old ;) but is still loads of fun. You need to be on the ball with the training, and although I didn't take mine, I have heard puppy classes and agility are great ways to train, bond and calm them down.
I have seen a couple of Welsh spaniels and they are gorgeous. More of a springer size with more muscle and longer hair.

Well puppy is wonderful and so is his breeder. I'm collecting Monday!!!

He has obviously been very well socialised, he is very confident (alone and with siblings) and inquisitive without being pushy. Has shockingly good bite inhibition for a 8.5week old puppy. Knows sit and will give a paw. He is totally relaxed being handled and touched anywhere on his body. He is also already partly toilet trained - goes to back door and circles then as soon as taken out quick circle and wee! Mum has a fabulous calm temperament and was so sweet.

Not only does breeder contract include the provision that she will take puppy back at any point in his life, she also includes a clause that if anything goes wrong in the first month, and you don't want to keep puppy, not only will she take puppy back, but she will also refund the full purchase price. That to me says she has both confidence in her own ability to pick the right homes for her puppies and that she has done a good job raising the puppy but also that she really does care and wants to ensure they go back to her rather than be passed/sold on or kept until training has gone so wrong that dog is left with issues.

The only negative is dad is a carrier for the PRA eye condition, however mum is totally clear (need it from both parents to ever suffer from it). So there is potential for my dog to be a carrier but not to ever develop the condition. She did it because dad was as good as could be in every other way (health (inc hip scores and all other conditions), conformation, temperament, show champ, vastly different blood lines (thus low COI), etc).

Oh and forgot to say both mum and dad have hip scores over 20% lower than the average.

Well I guess the PRA would only be a potential issue if you wanted to breed. My dogs parents were both PRA free but I would have still got him if he was a carrier as I knew I would not breed from him but just wanted to make sure he would never get that horrible condition.

I have zero intention to breed either, so knowing my dog can't get the condition is enough really but I wanted to know exactly why she chose that stud, despite him being a carrier for PRA, and her answer did satisfy me.

It sounds like you've found a fantastic breeder.

I would be happy with that explanation for her choice of stud dog as well. Although various conditions could theoretically be pretty much eliminated overnight by only breeding from clear dogs that obviously has a massively negative impact on the gene pool of the breed. It's all a bit of a balancing act trying to maintain what genetic diversity a breed has whilst also trying to gradually eliminate health concerns.

Thanks cornflake.