Off lead puppies in the park... WWYD?

[BogeyNights]

So briefly here's my back story: Adopted a rescue dog last summer, he's my first ever dog and he's now around 18 months old. Terrier mix, lively, great on lead, loves to play fetch, NOT food or toy aggressive, people friendly and generally dog friendly, except.... he is aggressive towards puppies. This started about 4 months ago.

4 Months ago I started walking him on a lead all the time in parks etc to avoid any puppy situations. He was great. We walk in the countryside off lead and his recall is generally pretty good if there's a treat or ball on offer. We've just finished a course of training and I've seen a real improvement in how I handle him and how he responds to me. GREAT!

Today, I went to the local park with him. It was earlyish and quiet there. I went so I can throw the ball for him. If I do it in the garden at home my neighbour gets annoyed because the dog barks with excitement for a while because we are playing a game. Once he's getting a bit focussed and puffed out he stops barking and just chases the ball. Anyway.... I went to the park to avoid a moan from my neighbour (and to be neighbourly, I suppose).

Dog and I are enjoying a game of fetch - he's been chasing for quite some time and is calm, ie not barking anymore, and very involved in our game. A couple of dogs come and go (dogs, not puppies) and my dog takes no interest; he wants the ball and is happy that we are playing together.

Then a guy and his two kids come up from behind me with their pup. The pup is off lead, not very old and runs straight up to my dog who is just returning to me with the ball. I warn the pup owner that my dog is not kind to puppies and I immediately call my dog and try and put him on the lead. But he's seen the pup and that's it - snarling and growling from my dog and squealing, from the pup; they are locked in a fight (that my dog has started). I pull my dog off immediately and apologise as much as I can, but pup owner is ignoring me.

I'm just so pissed off. I know my dog is not perfect, and I am pretty vigilant etc. I went to the park early to avoid other dog owners, and I do step in and lead my dog if I see another dog around close by. But this pup and his owner took me by surprise and I feel that it's perceived that it's all my fault that that a scrap kicked off. AIBU to think that if you have a puppy you don't let it just approach another dog in the park, especially if neither are on a lead??

I'm quite upset and know that I am a good proportion in the wrong, but I feel like I'm also expected to feel responsible for puppies who are off lead in a park. Even if my dog was on a lead, this would have kicked off and I'd still be in the wrong.

Will be interested to see what others say about this. My girl is 18 months old now, so just growing out of being a puppy. She is really silly with other dogs - not aggressive at all but wants to play and run round in circles - so we always put her back on the lead when we see others approaching. (Though, like you, sometimes we don't see the others quickly enough so a frantic chase takes place!) A few months ago we were in the woods when a woman with a dog and very young pup appeared. Neither of hers were on leads. The dog was lolloping along beautifully. The pup however went into a complete barking frenzy when it saw my dog (who was on her lead). The puppy just wouldn't leave her alone, racing round her in circles, yapping, pawing at her head, going completely tonto at her - I couldn't do anything to stop it - and the owner looked on proudly, beamed at me and said "it's so good for their socialisation isn't it!" I stared at her, open-mouthed. My dog was so traumatised that she turned to me and bit my arm extremely hard - which is totally out of character for her.

I feel really new at being a dog owner - we've had her 15 months but I still feel like a novice. I'll be interested to see what others say. Obviously puppies have to learn how to be sensible off-lead - mine has to learn not to be so daft with all other dogs. But I totally agree with you that owners should be vigilant and use leads when necessary, not just for the sake of their own pup/dog but for the others too.

With a puppy I would always check first before letting it greet a dog whether it's on lead or not.
You never know if the other dog likes puppies or not.
Same as if I had a bouncy boisterous adult dog, not every dog likes it with another dog in their face.

You knew yours doesn't like puppies and did warn the other owner.
Only thing you can do is to be even more vigilant and more forceful when telling yours doesn't like puppies.

Thank you for replying Blackbird & Marco. I will try and be more vigilant & aware of oncoming people & dogs, as you say.

It's difficult for anyone to have 'full control' of a dog, IMHO, because the dogs have their own brain and are not 'remote controlled'. I'm very understanding of other people with lively dogs when they approach.

I'm just finding that a year into being a dog owner that it's much like having kids - it doesn't get easier, it just gets different. Bottom line, it's hard work. I'm feeling a bit sorry for myself today :(

Blackbird, meant to also say that I too would have been fuming in the situation you described. I find when my dog's on a lead and the approaching dogs are lively and off lead, it can been quite fraught. In the situation you described, I'd have put my dog on the lead because of the pup.

But also, if I'm in a wood or field and a dog approaches and they are on a lead, I will put my dog on a lead too until we have passed each other - I though that that was good manners.

I've always assumed the dogs that are likely to be aggressive should be the ones on leads when other dogs are around. I'm sitting here thinking maybe I've been a complete dick letting my happy friendly little guy approach off lead dogs? He runs up and tries to play with every dog. I've always been completely chilled when he gets told off though. Feeling bit embarrassed tbh. But surely the real problem here is the puppies owner who was a dick about it - live and let live - all dogs need off lead time in an open space?

General consensus is that if you see a dog off lead then generally it's ok but that's not guaranteed.
I would be more willing to let a well behaved adult dog approach and greet an off lead dog and to check first if I had a boisterous dog or puppy.
And with on lead dogs I tend to get my dogs to focus on me and to exercise and play than to be interested in them, I usually just change direction.

The sensible thing to do if you have an aggressive/ reactive/ fear aggressive dog is to give it space.
This means scouring your surroundings and to recall and leash in presence of other dogs. You trust your dog and yourself but you cannot trust others to do the sensible thing.

My dog sounds similar to yours OP , he has some dog friends but he doesn't like being chased and harassed . If I see another off lead dog approach him I will call to the owner that he's not friendly and I expect them to keep their dog away , as I know that my dog will , if left alone , not approach another dog . I don't see why my dog should have to stay on a lead when he's minding his own business playing ball . He has got worse since he was attacked twice in a month , once by a staffy and then by a bulldog .

I wonder if your dog reacts in this way to puppies OP because in the past he's had several of them rush him and yap into his face.

People are weird about their bouncy over 'friendly' dogs.

In the park yesterday with my small, off lead dog. Walking along, throwing the ball and just doing our own thing. Very lively spaniel rushes up, which was okay as it didn't really affect my dog and then a few minutes later a man comes along with two large, one was a rottie, very boisterous dogs.

Suddenly all three dogs have surrounded my dog and were leaping around her trying to sniff her, running and playing with each other, and for some reason basing their play around my dog. They weren't being aggressive, just very lively.

Fortunately, being the showoff she is, she basically ignored them just wanting me to throw her ball - she likes to think other dogs will be lost in admiration at her 'amazing' ball skills. She's pretty confident around other dogs, but had she been nervous or at all reactive, the whole situation could have ended horribly.

The guy with the two big dogs did call them eventually as he walked on, but they only responded to him when they decided they would.

And why, I have to wonder, in a huge park, did he think it sensible to head towards the smallest dog there?

Having to watch out for other people's dogs, just in case, doesn't make for a relaxed walk does it? As pp have said, all you can do is continue to be vigilant, and don't be afraid of sounding a bit forceful in informing people that your dog is not friendly to bouncing puppies.

If I see an off lead dog in a park I assume it is okay with other dogs. I have a dog friendly, confident pup who will go up and say hi with a sniff and play if the other dog wants to. A few times she has been snarled at and she has always backed down and trotted off, to me this seems like a normal doggy interaction - I don't mind if she gets snarled at occasionally it's how she learns to have manners. I have to say these days it's rare that she will approach a dog who may snarl because she has learnt the body language to look out for and tends to trot past quite quickly.
If a dog is onlead or an owner looks stressed I will pop pup on lead and avoid them.

Sorry I think you're wrong

If I see a dog off the lead and is kept off lead even after the owners have seen me, then I assume the dog is friendly!

If I see a dog get put on the lead after spotting me, then I'll walk the opposite direction.

Saying that, if your dog is unfriendly for whatever reason, I don't see the point in going to a field. You may as well take it on a normal walk. Fields imo are for off lead exercise. Not for avoiding dogs that aren't friendly.

In this situation however I wouldn't say you were totally in the wrong.
You warned the owners your dog wasn't friendly towards puppies. However as a puppy you've got to expect them to approach you.

As I say, if my dog wasn't friendly for whatever reason I wouldn't go to a field and let it off.

Sparkling, just for clarity, if I EVER see a pup nowadays I'll put my dog on a lead WHEREVER I am; field, park, woodland whatever.

My dog is ok with adult dogs and I'm generally far more relaxed with them approaching us. But if I see a dog out on a lead, coming my way wherever I am, I'll put mine on the lead. If the dog is off lead and coming my way and my dog is off lead, I'll keep him off lead. So that they are 'equal'.

But pups, when I see them (and they're not coming up from behind me) I'm in super vigilant mode (!!!) and I'll put the lead on my dog and move away.

Floral, that's how I felt; we were playing and minding our own business and along comes a pup. But I know I should have been more switched on to be prepared for one arriving at any time.

Pigs, that's so annoying and I totally get the feeling of "it's a great big park, why come towards me!??" esp if you have a little dog and the otheres are larger

A dog that's not friendly, reactive etc has as much right to be exercised off lead as any other dogs.
But I expect reactive / aggressive dog owners and any dog owners to be in control of their dogs.
Having a dog that's not friendly means the owner has to take greater care to give it space.
That means taking it off lead when you can see clearly all around you, being able to recall on command, choosing time, paths and areas where you're least likely bumping in to other dogs.
The onus is on them to avoid other dogs and triggers and not on others in keeping theirs away from yours.
This may mean not being able to walk at busy time and area.
In an ideal world, people train their dogs to have a reliable recall, don't go up to on lead dogs uninvited but we don't, so it's up to owners to set themselves up not to fail and rely on themselves in providing space for their dogs.

Our lurcher was a friendly but very stupid puppy.His recall was good unless he really wanted to play when he would sometimes ignore me completely and rush toward other dogs. On one occasion he got a nip to the ear (which drew blood) from a collie who had growled at him as he approached. Both dogs were off lead and the owner shouted to me as my pup was approaching that her dog might not be friendly so I called him back and he ignored me.

The fault was with my dog but he learned an important socialising lesson and he's now very good at reading body language in other dogs. From the sound of it no harm was done to the puppy (a bit of squealing is fear not injury) and I wouldn't worry too much. You're clearly trying to address the issues your dog has, sorry you're feeling bad.

sparkling , so in your world my dog , who would never approach another dog , should have to be condemned to a life of on lead pavement walks because somebody else can't keep their dog from interfering with him . Thanks , but I will stick to my current arrangement where he has a life.

Our dog's recall isn't 100% if there is another dog around, most of the time he comes back but sometimes some dogs are just tooo irresistible (he wants to play, never aggressive). If we are out I only let him off lead if I have full 360 degree vision to continuously check and I put him back on lead as soon as I see another dog.

The puppy owner should have checked your dog was ok to play and took a huge and unacceptable risk for their pup, but you know you have an aggressive dog without 100% recall so should have been much more careful where he was off lead and more vigilant.

Our pup, while on lead, was attacked twice by offlead dogs who didn't like puppies body language and turned very submissive. It can have a huge impact on puppies development of social skills with other dogs.

The puppy owner was in the wrong. However I'm assuming your dog doesn't run up to unfamiliar dogs and act aggressively? Is it only when he is approached?

Personally I would avoid parks. There's too much potential for trouble. Scout out your local area for quiet fields, ones that are hidden away (with footpaths obviously, not private land)

Or you could search for a private dog walking field where you will be the only person so no worry about other dogs.

It's a pain in the arse but you have a reactive dog so I would put as much effort as possible into sourcing new places to walk where you are unlikely to run into other people.

Floral your dog sounds exactly like mine. He never, and I mean never ,approaches other dogs because he is just not interested in them and would rather just be left alone. If a very over friendly bouncy one charges into his face which they seem to do regularly he doesn't always take it well but then I feel terrible if he tells them off even though their behaviour is very rude in doggy terms.

I wish people would have the basic courtesy to check if they want their dogs to meet others. I was so careful as a puppy owner not to let me dog bother other dogs who were minding their own business and if he got snapped at I would have felt it was my fault for letting him harass a dog that was minding its own business.

Wings, my dog love to play too and will approach adult dogs - using the cautious body language, slow walk, tale wagging - and he's happy to sniff/be sniffed and maybe play together and chase. He's fine. But if it's a pup, no way! He's very aware of it being a pup and if I'm not 'on him' straight away he will approach and the outcome is nothing like I've described with an adult dog. It's not good. So I have to put the lead on and distract him quickly.

Rise, I do walk elsewhere where it's quiet and rural. And like I said, he's fine with adult dogs. But my local park is on the other side of my road. The rural area is 10 minute drive away. Sometimes I just can't be arsed to get in the car when there's a park across the road. I use the park when it's not busy for off lead playing and if it's busy my dog stays on the lead.
I'm reading through this thread and I feel a lot calmer now, this afternoon, but this morning it all got too much. I was walking home thinking how on earth can I keep this dog if I can't let it run in the garden because my neighbour moans that it barks and I can't let it loose in the park because it hates puppies. So I have to always take it in the car somewhere to run free. It's a miserable scenario and not what I imagined for myself when I first got a dog.

babyblackbird , exactly , mine wouldn't actually go straight into attack mode , he generally goes really stiff and hopes they'll go away but if they come front on and stare at him he just takes real offence , but ive generally stepped in by then so no harm done . The 2 times he was attacked it was the other dogs that started it by jumping on him but unfortunately the terrier in him just won't back down and he will get involved in a good scrap , sadly on both occasions me and or him came off worse and on both occasions the other owners just stood yelling and it was me that had to dive in and pick mine up before he got eaten.

A 10 minute drive isn't far. once a day take your dog to the rural area for a good off lead run and a couple of times a day you take to the local park for on lead walk/training/longline games.