Residential training?

[lilybetsy]

My Ddog2 is becoming a serious problem. He is a 9 month older border collie. He is resource guarding, aggressive to other dogs ( when he gets over excited) over dominant and unpredictable. He is our second collie, from the same KFC assured breeder. Dog 1 also a collie, is a dream, and perhaps falsely confident I assumed dog 2 would be the same.

At home is me and thee adolescent children. DC 1 and 3 are very involved with managing dog walking / training. Someone is home most of the time, and the dogs are exercised about 2 hours a day, with a mix of me, DS , dog walker and a friend. We have a big garden and dc3 plays ball with the dogs every day.

When he was 6 months old we had a behaviourist to help us manage his resource guarding and aggression around food / toys. This is better, but only if we feed him by hand and take care that he doesn't get very high value things e.g. Bones.

He has started being aggressive to other digs, dog walker won't take him without a muzzle now, and I'm becoming increasingly anxious about something bad happening. He's as sweet as anything with me, and with my DC and our dog 1 , but his aggressive behaviour is escalating and I simply don't have the time ( or experience) to reverse this. It's either rehoming - for his benefit too, or intensive residential training...

He's only 9 months old. Please try not to be too mean, we all love him dearly. We waited to get a second dog till ddog 1 was 3' and until we were completely happy with her behaviour and training. But maybe we are just the wrong home ?

The main issue with residential training is that it's usually presented as a guaranteed quick fix, anyone who is promising behavioural problems will be fixed within a certain time frame is either lying or they're using techniques which will suppress the undesired behaviour without actually addressing the causes. Obviously this can cause much greater issues further down the line.

It's also better for a dog to be worked with at home or where the issues are happening rather than in a completely strange environment which is very far removed from their normal day to day life. Professional training is just as much about working with the owner as it is about working with the dog which is why reputable trainers don't offer to take dogs with issues away from their owners then hand them back "fixed".

If rehoming is the only other option I'd recommend trying another behaviourist/trainer first. Going through one of these organisations will ensure you're getting someone reputable.

If he's not already had one I'd also make sure he's had a very thorough check over by your vet to rule out any kind of physical reason for his behaviour. Not just a quick oncer over but blood tests (to check things like thyroid function), check for any decrease in vision, etc.

As well as the physical exercise is he getting plenty of mental stimulation? Physical exercise is good but his brain needs working as well and too much of the former, especially things like sustained periods of ball throwing, can result in a permanently hyped up and stressed out dog. This blog post explains it very well. Instead of the ball throwing I'd try something to get his brain working instead, something more relaxing than exciting.

Finally I'd make sure you let his breeder know about the issues you're having with him. Behaviour/temperament does have a very heavy genetic component (there's a great article on this here) and if this is a case of unsound temperament or something with a physical cause which is potentially inherited they really do need to know.

Tempting as it is to go on a residential training course I would be worried that the problems would continue when he got home. How many 1-1 sessions with a good behaviourist would you get for the same cost?

I wouldn't bother with residential either. I find once they get home things tend to slip back.

Have you consulted a proper veterinary behaviourist re medication in order to help him learn maybe?

I have to agree with others, in your case, RT would be a waste of time and money.
Do what Cornflake suggested, rule out any potential medical problems. Than it's back to basic training with more mental stimulation. Intelligent breeds like BC's need to exercise body and mind. That's why they are great at all sorts of doggie sports as well as a working dog of course. He sounds like a young, energetic dog that is bored and without a fixed role in your family. If you can't provide him with the right kind of stimulation due to time or his personality contact his breeder. They could be able to help you with finding a suitable home.

Thanks for your thoughts. I have already had a behaviourist, recommended by my vet. She was very good, but in reality I work full time and I simply don't have the time to be able to do the work properly. That's honest, and whilst I deeply regret it, and feel very guilty, it's pragmatic and realistic.
DS1, (18) who is home a lot of the time - he works evenings and nights, is not reliable and does not do the training consistently. Again, I'm being pragmatic.
The vet has done a thorough check and says there is nothing physical wrong with him.
The option of residential training, he will live in a family with other dogs, and receive intensive training, is what I could / would do if I were here.
In my opinion (and that of the vet and the dog walker) he's a reactive and slightly anxious dog, he needs training, reinforced consistently.
I DO have the time and commitment to continue the work when he comes home, say an hour split between two sessions.

It IS expensive, but he is 9 months old, and we love him so much. I am also aware how bonded he is to us ..It seems worth the opportunity, rather than rehoming.

And for those saying I should not have a dog / a collie/ a second dog.. maybe. I feel guilty enough already. But, we already had one collie who is just fine, we trained her and she has perfect manners and is a delight. In fact when ddog2 arrived, there is more human company as DS1 is now working evenings, so home in the day, when I am out...

At nine months old he's an adolescent and it's not uncommon for young dogs to have fear periods during this stage of their development. Your dog is already nervous/anxious and being sent away to a strange place full of strange people/dogs, particularly at his age, may really knock his confidence even more which is exactly what you don't want.

Even if the trainer effectively deals with the problem behaviours in their environment it doesn't necessarily mean they're gone for good and won't return once the dog is back with you. Things like the resource guarding are much better dealt with at home in their usual environment. The source of the behaviour needs dealing with, not just the behaviour itself.

At the very least I'd make sure the person you're intending to send your dog to is at least a member of one of these organisations and if not, ask them why not. The link at the end of that list (linking again here for convenience) is well worth reading as well and it's particularly pertinent where the bulk of the training is being done behind closed doors away from the owner.

If you're on FB I would highly recommend joining this group and asking for advice on your dog's issues/opinions on residential training on there. It's a group run by highly respected professionals who all advocate the use of up to date, science based methods.

Blackfellpony as you have obviously had experience of residential training I wondered what things slipped back with your dog as I have also been considering residential training to assist with my reactive rescue. Did it make NO difference or very little? thank you

To be honest with you I have never heard of a reputable trainer offering residential training, but I a man prepared to be proven wrong. The problem is that dogs need consistent handling in different environments to overcome their problems and you just can't achieve this in RT.

If I were you I would seek out a specialist vet who deals with challenging behaviours. There is a lot that can be achieved with medicine nowadays.

Then I would talk to the whole family. Everyone needs to be on board with implementing the behaviour modification programme your behaviourist has recommended otherwise it will not work.

Finally I would increase his level of stimulation. Do you do anything specific with the dog like agility, flyball, etc? Would he be able to cope with other dogs around in such an activity?

My dog would love to do agility or flyball but due to his reactivity it is not possible which is a shame as he has tons of energy to burn off which walking alone doesn't really do plus he needs mental stimulation. The problem is also not helped by off lead dogs who have no recall running over and not leaving him alone when he is kept on the lead and even when I call to the owner of the off lead dog to call their dog away they just shout "no need he's really friendly" and it really is a big project and very slow progress.

There are some aspects of these sports you can try at home. You can make or buy basic agility equipment and have fun with that. Have you tried any clicker training? It's great for teaching new behaviours and keeping dogs mentally stimulated.

LaGattaNera try this link to find a dog training club... there is no reason for you not to try out some agility training. (It's not just for people who are serious about competing!) You will most likely do other classes like obedience or good citizens dog to help you and your dog to achieve great things.

(We have a fenced area & beginners classes are small. Reactive dogs are often keep t on lead for the first few sessions. But you might find, with regular training his attention will be on you, he won't have time to go and look for trouble! Obedience class will reinforce this as well.
I used to have a little terrier, he was great at Agility knew his job.... but on a normal walk would beat up anything remotely looking like a dog from a mile away given half a chance.)

www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/findaclub/Default.aspx

thank you

Hi sounds highly reactive and anxious, and not at all 'over-dominant' as you mention in your OP.

Has he been neutered? I would strongly suggest NOT neutering him. It sounds as if he needs consistency and time to mature emotionally and develop his confidence.

Training classes leading onto agility are a very good idea. And I'd suggest contacting an APBC accredited behaviourist if you haven't already (not sure if your previous behaviourist was?) Agree that residential training is unlikely to 'fix' what is almost certainly a problem originating from anxiety/emotions - to change his behaviour you need to change his emotional state and that means increasing stability and confidence, not sending him away.

Dogs Trust have started a new initiative called Dog School which is focussed on training and behaviour classes to help people cope better with their Dogstar - could thus be an option? They've also got a number of useful resources here www.dogstrust.org.uk/help-advice/

Did your behaviourist suggest BAT? It's not suitable for all dogs and it does require quite a bit of feel on the part of the handler but it can help.

Don't write off dog clubs. They may not be able to just add you to their beginner's club but they may be able to offer you help. It may be one to one help for a few sessions and then allowing you to work your dog at a distance from non-reactive dogs to gain his confidence before joining a group.

Could you pay your dog walker to work with him and the behaviourist?

" I have already had a behaviourist, recommended by my vet. She was very good, but in reality I work full time and I simply don't have the time to be able to do the work properly."

Why not?

I don't mean why don't you have spare time, I mean why was it taking extra time?

I have a reactive dog, the training time isn't separate extra time, it's time I'd be spending walking or doing things with him anyway, I'm just doing different things than if he wasn't reactive.

Thanks. In answer to the direct questions, no he's not neutered yet; again on the advice of out Vet who suggested as you did , that it might make things worse.

The organisation I was looking at is this www.adolescentdogs.com/ and this is the trainer www.adolescentdogs.com/lilazachwatowicz.html

The problems that the behaviourist came to help with was largely about resource guarding, and ddogs anxiety about noise esp capping etc on the TV. This has (partially) settled with her techniques, but the aggression to other dogs has developed and increased over the last 2/12. On Saturday he also started circling and barking at a man in the park who was sitting eating a picnic.

I do think part of this is MY lack of confidence that I can reverse this myself eg I am sure that the other dogs with the dog walker 'wind him up' and if he were walked alone, or just with ddog1 it would be better. But I can't do 2 hours walking a day. Like I said I can do an hour every day, but not two.

I do understand what many of you are saying, bit I am scared that something will go badly wrong and we will end up with him or another dog injured (hence the muzzle) or worse he will traumatise a child by barking etc ...

If this doesn't produce sustained benefits I WILL rehome him (for his safety and benefit) but I would like to try this first

Border collies are sensitive dogs and many can be reactive. I have a highly reactive collie but with work things are now manageable and he spent all weekend at an agility completion amongst hundred of dogs and people - so do not despair the situation can be improved.

Collies need consistent handling but it need not be really time consuming. Collies also need a lot of brain work and this is over physical activity. Many people think you need to exercise a collie to exhastion - you don't it just increases the adrenalin and you will have a hyper fit collie!.

I would recommmend a good behaviourist with collie experience - tbh a good trainer with collie experience will be able to deal with this problem . If you want to pm me your area I can send recommendations.

In the short term I would drop the ball chasing, I would also pay for the dog walker to walk him on his own (this may be more money but less than residential training,). To start with you need to bring down his adrenalin levels this can take over 72 hours from an event to which he reacted. If he has several events this will trigger stack on him and he will be highly aroused and react to minor issues.

So for a week at least, no ball chasing and I would drop any walks for a day or two. Let him chill at home. Then walk him on his own in an area where he will not see his triggers. If a dog approaches just turn away and reward him.

Fill his head with other things at home, get him to work for his food, fed from hand and teach him tricks, anything spins to the left and right etc, walking backwards, rolling over - all very easy stuff for a collie - (look at kiko pup) videos to help you.

Teach him to relax on a mat, just have him on the mat next to you in the sitting room and at intervals give a treat for lying still.

I could go on but you have probably stopped reading by now - sorry this is an issue close to my heart :)

Just to say this is a straight forward issue with collies and can be turned around.

Books or videos to look at are:--

[[https://tug-e-nuff.co.uk/products/naughty-but-nice-dvd?variant=36522360455&gclid=CjwKEAjw9_jJBRCXycSarr3csWcSJABthk07lyDXItdz-Zth6TU8eoWLQfREWI1tLya2PzBKqNEeuxoCAOTw_wcB
Naughty but Nice]]

Controlled Unleased

Actually just seen your post Lila is amazing so if Adolescent dogs would quarantee that you would have Lila I might consider residential training. She has loads of collie experience, he would have other calm collies in the house to learn with.

However personally I would go to Lila for one to one and see if you can do the training yourself -

I am booked with Lila. Am waiting till July 4th when she has a space...They have been very helpful and kind.

user1486071876 Thank you. My feeling is that he's a reactive dog with a good heart and can be trained / supported out of this. But I think it needs someone experienced to do it.

You advice re the dog walker / not playing ball etc is really good, and I am going to follow that. I can take him out early in the morning when there are not many others around, and late in the evening ( as its light so late)

I do the thing where I have him on the floor beside me and drop him treat just for being still!

I am so glad you have booked with Lila she is fab! I have been on her workshops and have regular 1-2-1 with her for agility.

She reads dogs extremely well - good luck