My dog frightens others :(

[ForeverHopeful21]

I have a 3.5 year old male mini schnauzer, he's always been a dominant and lively dog. We went to puppy classes and have done other one on one training. We've always had lots of house rules, and indoors he is PERFECT in every way. Everyone that knows him, loves him.

BUT ...when we're out he isn't as well behaved. He's always had a very keen interest in other dogs and loves to play. This has been ok until the past 18 months when he's been a bit hit and miss with other male dogs. He gets very excited, barks a lot, and if off lead he bounds over. If I call him once he's seen the other dog he'll only come back around 75% of the time. Most of the time he shoots off and then he'll just have a sniff and wander off or he'll try and play (admittedly sometimes his play does seem intense i.e. he'll mount the other dog). Most owners aren't bothered and he has never bitten or hurt another dog.
Strangely it's often the other dogs that will growl at him and other dogs that don't seem to like him, but I assume this is because he's giving off some kind of signal??

Today he ran over to a woman and her dog quite far ahead in-front of me. Although I didn't see him do anything bad, I could see that he was stood very still (in a menacing kind of way!). The other dog lay down submissively, and so the owner picked her dog up in her arms. My dog then tried jumping up to get to the dog and the woman got very upset. It's played on my mind all day because the last thing I want is for my dog to frighten someone. I actually feel like I don't want to take him anymore

I've done training on this and paid a fortune for private sessions. No matter how much training I do, he still won't listen when other dogs are around.
I live in a rural area and have always walked him off lead. I'm wondering if it's come to a point where he'll have to be on lead at all times just in case he frightens other walkers. I feel like this is a shame and a massive inconvenience but I know that he's my responsibility.

Had anyone else experienced similar?

So Vivienne if your small dog is being jumped all over by a huge dog you just stand there? If big dog is playing but scaring your small dog are you just supposed to let that happen?

Hi op.
I feel for you but keep him on a lead till he learns some doggy manners.
If the dogs he approaches are on leads that's because the owners are wary of how their own dog will behave and quite possibly are training themselves.
I have a collie aged 10 never on a lead but never approaches other dogs unless they give the signal when they are close. They sniff each others regions and I call him and away he comes.
My greyhound is 5 and never off lead as I can't guarantee 100% she would come back when called. She also gets over excited with other dogs as she's been in kennels and raced all her lie so think a giant puppy so she's unpredictable.
We are training her at home about boisterous play etc with my other dog

When we pass other dogs I keep and cheery voice with her let her have a sniff and then off we go go the adrenaline doesn't raise too high too quickly which cause their lack of control.
Maybe you could try some long lead training?
But remember if your dog is off lead and approaches another dog in lead the responsibility lies with you if anything happens.
Dogs are like excited toddlers with no social skills until trained

Thanks for all comments.

Karma he didn't 'go for the dog', he was jumping up in excitement, and only did this once the owner picked her dog up. He stopped as soon as I told him too but obviously the damage had been done and the owner was upset. I'm aware that his boisterous behaviour can frighten others, hence my original post, but he wasn't acting aggressive and wasn't trying to attack the dog or the owner!

In general his behaviour with other dogs is just VERY playful and he wants to go over to every single dog we see ...unless the other dog is on a lead and then I'll put him on lead too. But he'll then try to pull me over to the dog, hopping on hind legs and he'll whine in desperation to be with the other dog. Just to be clear he has NEVER had a fight or attacked another dog.
But there has been about 3 occasions over the past 18 months that he'll go rigid and his tail goes straight and he'll get very close to the other dogs face and I can feel the tension. That's when I pull him away and usually both dogs then act up. The other owner always says "he's never done this before" so again I think it must be my dog who is trying to start something? The dogs were all male and all in tact.

I haven't had him neutered as we also have a female (very well behaved!) who we'll be breeding. Well, that was the plan, but if neutering would solve my problem then I would seriously consider getting it done.

I already have a long line from when he was a pup so I'll walk him on this for now. I have done lots of training already and paid for one to one sessions too. Trainers always love him! He's a very clever dog and comes across as very obedient. His behaviour isn't wild by any means. But as an owner I don't want there to be any occasions where other owners are frightened.

It's worrying that you talk of dominance
Wolfiefan I am no dog expert, just a dog owner. Sorry if I'm not using the correct terminology. Dominant is just how I would describe his behaviour over some other dogs i.e. he seems to be the one 'in charge', he's boisterous, and like I said he sometimes mounts during play.

ofudginghell thank you so much for your response. This is exactly what my dog is like ...a grown up puppy. Very excitable, very social, inquisitive and lots of energy.
I think some readers mistook my post for being about aggression, and although it is male dogs where there seems to be some kind of issue, I think his main problem is manners and more training around me having control over who he can and can't approach.

He is a very friendly dog and I'm not stupid enough to have him off a lead if I thought otherwise. But due to his behaviour and seeing that other owner upset yesterday, I am keen to do something about it in case it does become something more. Thanks again x

Beepbeep if one dog was jumping all over another dog then you would pull them away from one another, would you not?
I think the point was that, in my situation yesterday, the owner picked her dog up before my dog actually did anything at all - he wasn't jumping or actually doing anything wrong. As soon as she picked it up, my dog got excited and starting jumping. Yes my dog was in the wrong, do doubt about it, but she did make the situation worse.

I did lots of random recall, random on and off lead walking, not letting them approach every dog to play in the park when my dogs were young so they didn't think coming back was a bad thing which meant the end of play.
Make yourself the focus of the walk.

They have to learn to be calm to carry on playing or the playing stops.

One little sentence in MarcoPolo's post says it all really.

Make yourself the focus of the walk.

Calm is good on a walk but with recall, even if it means you look stupid leaping around and calling your dog, if it keeps the attention on you and makes your dog love coming back to you, do it, obviously with lots of treats.

Keep him on a lead until his recall is under control. And get him neutered. I'm sure his potential offspring won't be a massive loss

www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/findarescue/Default.aspx?breed=4096

But he'll then try to pull me over to the dog, hopping on hind legs and he'll whine in desperation to be with the other dog

This would be really intimidating and worrying for my reactive dog. Even if your dog isn't aggressive, he is still not under control and that is a problem.

Please don't breed them - in the kindest way, there are already far too many dogs needing homes and in your own words you are not a dog expert. No-one should be breeding without sound knowledge both of the breed and of dog behaviour.

Luna I work with the kennel club and with the kennel club breeders where my female dog was from. They have over 20 years experience in breeding and world champion dogs, and have become a mentor to us and actually insist on working closely with us if we decide to breed. Just because I said I wasn't a dog expert, doesn't mean I'm reckless. Thanks for the concern.

Marcopolo you're right, I'm currently not the focus of the walk and this needs to change. Thanks for the advice all.

I work with the kennel club and with the kennel club breeders where my female dog was from. They have over 20 years experience in breeding and world champion dogs, and have become a mentor to us and actually insist on working closely with us if we decide to breed. Just because I said I wasn't a dog expert, doesn't mean I'm reckless. Thanks for the concern.

To be fair, that's a little bit different to "I'm just a dog owner"

No, you're not reckless but this thread is about how your dog frightens others and with the best will in the world that's not responsible. I wish you all the best with dealing with it and fair play to you for knowing that it is an issue.

Luna I'm not really sure what your point is? I am just a dog owner, I currently have two pet dogs, one of whom has got giddiness overload. I have no dog behavioural qualifications and I may not always know the exact terminology (which is where this 'expert' thing came from) but I'm well aware of what I need to know when it comes to breeding, and the people who I need to support this to happen correctly. I don't really see what any of that has to do with my original post to be honest? I'm after advice, not criticism.

I was very upset when I could see that the owner yesterday was frightened. This is the last thing I want, hence why I've walked him on lead since, why I wrote this post, and why I've now contacted a local training academy.

I would also be wary of breeding with a dog with dominance issues. I would never have bred from my lab despite phenomenal bloodlines as she was quite fear aggressive and I didn't think it was a trait that ought to be encouraged through breeding. Also a dog like yours would have been my worst nightmare on a walk. I ended up only ever walking her on private land with permission, as owners who couldn't recall their dogs always insisted it was fine for them to 'play' with my anxious dog on a short lead. I got scared. I will not have another dog as a result. And yes we did loads of work with behaviourists but could never control what other people's dogs did.

wolfiefan, silver is right. Dominance theory is about owners using doglike behaviour to dominate dogs and live as a pack and is usually ineffective. But dogs are dogs so dominance and submission are their language and a dog mounting other dogs is usually about trying to be dominant. Just like we shouldn't dog-ise human behaviour we shouldn't humanise dog behaviour

Humping is often down to either over excitement or stress/anxiety. It can also be a sexual behaviour but when you've got two strange dogs meeting out and about then it's most likely to be one of the first two.

Dominance theory no more applies between dogs and dogs than it does between humans and dogs. Although dogs are social creatures, left to their own devices they form fairly loose and fluid social groups, not fixed packs with a rigid hierarchy that is maintained by displays of dominance over each other. Even wolves (which dogs aren't) don't live or behave like this. The whole theory was based on a very flawed study of a group of unrelated captive wolves, not wild wolf (or dog) behaviour.

This is a very good article about the subject.

Thanks @CornflakeHomunculus
I'm glad I got something right.

I don't actually care what the correct protocol is, or how you are 'supposed' to behave around dogs. Why should I have to learn what to do if a loose dog is making a bloody nuisance of itself?

Other people's dogs are not my responsibility, and I don't see why anyone who doesn't own one should be expected to know exactly what to do around an aggressive dog - other than yell at the owner to control the sodding thing.

As far as I'm concerned, if any small child is terrified by the threatening behaviour of an out-of-control dog, then you put the child's safety first and pick them up out harm's way. Better that the dog can only reach their feet, and can't bite them in the face.

OP, this isn't aimed at you by the way, you are doing your best, and it does seem that for the time being, your pooch will need to be on a lead.

As the owner of a reactive dog who hates being approached directly by boisterous dogs yours would create a difficult situation for me and honestly I wouldn't be adverse to giving it a swift kick to keep it away from mine - I've already had to pay hundreds on vet fees when she was attacked and ripped open by a dominant and boisterous dog previously.

I'm amazed you let it off lead based on what you know of its behaviour!

Get a long line, a clicker and some nice treats or a tuggy toy if not food focused and work on recall and position release. Means he can still have room to play when appropriate but he's not terrorising other dogs.

I'm going to stop responding because I feel like I have to keep defending myself when I was only after helpful advice.
And for the millionth time, my dog has NEVER attacked another dog and doesn't terrorise them!

Cornflake I understand the flaws of different dominance theory and the studies behind it thanks largely to a degree in zoology and a background in canine behaviour including their wild social behaviours and how they have evolved to communicate with humans, as obviously you do as well. Of course I wasn't saying that dominance was the only possible explanation here, however it would also be just as dangerous to discount it in this case and others. The other body language the dog displays at the time is more important which is why no one can diagnose a problem on a forum. But wolfie was incorrect to imply that dominance in dog society has been debunked, because although hierarchy is different in dogs than wolves, dominant and submissive signals do still exist and therefore it is important to understand them.
Perhaps my former reply was simplified too much but there you go.

I understand the difficult situation you're in OP and I do feel for you. However if your dog is running up to another dog, not responding to recall and jumping at them then I would say that is terrorising from the other owner's view. Our rescue dog had never been socialised before we got him (literally been in a solo kennel for all four years of his life for 23 hours a day so hadn't met any other breed of dog). Needless to say it's taken us a long time- 3.5 years to get him to a stage where he's accepting of other dogs and can be off lead, albeit we still muzzle him for safety just in case. He's never attacked another dog... however he gets very growly and distressed when smaller dogs run and jump at him- he has delicate skin so they hurt him when they jump :( Just wanted to share from the other side as it's hard for owners like us to explain why it's not ok for a dog that can't be recalled to bound over to ours when ours doesn't want to play!

Thank you Ember - you've explained very well.

The bottom line is that if the other dog or owner do not want yours to play with them for whatever reason, then you need to be able to recall your dog straight away, and also be able to get your dog to stop play if it gets too much.

My dog was exactly the same as yours - totally obsessed with other dogs and just wouldn't listen as soon as another dog was around yet amazing at home and in training with no distractions. How old is your dog? Mine is now 4 and has really calmed down - a combination of growing up and because he has a ball that he only gets when out. He's now obsessed with that to the point where other dogs want to play and he ignores them! I couldn't believe the change. He's still friendly and has a sniff and a bit of a play but not as bothered. Obviously go back to basics as everyone has said but the ball has worked for me so worth a shot?