Should I have my dog DNA tested

[Asskicker]

Hi

Just wondering if you can help.

I have 20 week show type English cocker spaniel. Lovely dog, no problems at all. She is fab.

We got her from a breeder, who we visited 3 times, she grilled us as much as we did her. Puppy is kc registered. We know the breed, fairly well, as we have had several. But we aren't experts at all. Just dog owners.

We picked one that was not show quality. She was lovely. Her ears were sat a little higher than the others and she had a great temperament.

Anyway, every time we walk her we hear 'oh what a lovely springer' , as she has grown she does look like a springer. We had her at the groomers for her feet doing and got 'oh I love springers'. At the vets, the vet apologised and said they registered her as a cocker when she is clearly a springer.

I told the vet she was a cocker. She looked doubtful. The vet wouldn't give a definitive answer as we had seen the mother and spoke to the fathers owners. But said they had heard of people adding dogs into litters. Perhaps from another breeder who only had one puppy in the litter. But it was very unusual with kc registered pups.

She said we need to wait until she was full grown. The vet did a complete health check and confirmed she is a healthy puppy.

Yesterday we were approached by a man who bred springers for 25 years. He just wanted to stroke her. We spoke with him for a while and he said he thought she was definitely a springer. He also told us that some breeders will add puppies from other breeders litters to make them easy to sell.

Now it doesn't matter what she is to us. We know both breeds need lots of walking and both springers and cockers need lots of exercise, so she will fit into our lives either way.

But I am really concerned I don't have what I thought I bought an that the breeder is clearly not as great as we thought.

Should I get a DNA test? Dh is wary of going back the breeder and thinks we should complain to trading standards instead, but need to confirm we are right first. We have heard they an be DNA tested.

I am so confused, I did loads of research and thought getting a kc registered dog would help ensure we weren't being ripped off or getting the dog from someone unscrupulous.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

To be honest, most working Cockers bear little resemblance to show Cockers, so if you don't know which you've bought then I think it's perhaps a little unfair to automatically assume the breeder is trying to get one over on you - although obviously it does happen.

I do know. I bought a show type English cocker.

When I said I didn't know, I meant I don't know now.

When we bought her I was 100% certain she was a show type cocker. But now I am not so sure. I can't say she doesn't have working in her. I can't say anything with 100% certainty at the moment. It very well could be that she is a working cocker. I don't know.

Dh is going to contact the breeder and kc tomorrow. I am due some results at from the hospital tomorrow, which are not expected to be great, so dh has said he will sort it.

Either way we are keeping her. So that's not an issue.

Sorry total name change fail

The photo of when you first saw her, she looks closer to a working cocker, but the second one she def looks more springer. It might be to do with her colouring, atypical springer colouring, or she may be a sprocker.
Below is a pic of my dog. She is a show cocker and this photo is a few weeks after we got her, so still young. Both her mum and dad are show cockers (mum a blue roan and dad a blue and tan). Cockers tend to have more of a droopy eye shape as far as I know. Their heads are also a bit more domed, and their ears are set a bit lower.
As someone said, you should be able to look back at her lineage if you have her pedigree name.

She's stunning - but she does look like a springer. If she is a cocker, she isn't show type - her ears are too small and her head isn't sufficiently domed. She could be a working cocker.

I would say she is probably a springer (the colour is more springer, too - liver and white ticked isn't impossible cockers, but is much more common in springers) or a "sprocker" (springer x cocker). "Sprockers" can look very like pure springers, depending on which "type" they favour. Could the wrong stud dog have got hold of her dam, perhaps? The breeder may genuinely think she's pure.

As another poster has said, the only DNA test that would be of any use would be one with would compare her DNA with that of the putative dam and sire.

Is she KC registered and did you get a pedigree with her? If so, and she proves to be a springer or springer cross, the breeder has defrauded you. You obviously want to keep your lovely pup, so are unlikely to get any money back (and I bet she wasn't cheap!), but you could report her to the Kennel Club.

We have a working springer and a working cocker and they are both lovely. The springer is somewhat looney , but very biddable and eager to please; the cocker is steadier but more obstinate. We wouldn't part with either of them.

Neela Sorry - didn't read right through when I posted - I've said much the same as you. (apologetic grin)

Just to add, a bitch can have a litter with several fathers, so its possible the breeder mated her with the stud, but she could have been "got" by another dog if the breeder wasn't keeping her isolated. The breeder may not have realised (altho of course if she's breeding she should make sure she knows what she's doing!)

This is done intentionally in numerically low breeds as a way of widening the gene pool, because o course a bitch shouldn't have too many litters, its unfair on her.

I showed 'show cockers' for years from childhood. Even given relatively recent popularity of 'working cockers' as family pets, that looks like a Welsh Springer to me. Do you have the kc pedigree form? Its worth googling dog family names as pictures will pop up especially if they've won breed classes in the show ring. If they don't look like your puppy you can raise questions. I'm not sure about the effectiveness of dna to show breed as opposed to familial connection. Did you see either parent when you visited the breeder? Can you trace the litter and compare the siblings? If the puppies new owners have registered them, the kc will have details.

She looks adorable.

Is there a price difference.

As an example ( from the world database for Englich Show Cockers)

LOCHRANZA NEWSPRINT - World Pedigree DataBase English ...
ingrus.net/cocker/en/details.php?id=1285

Looks like a working cocker to me. Brown and white working cockers are very common. I have one of about the same age in brown and white. The colouring doesn't make her a springer. What weight is she? There is quite a size difference between a working cocker and springer. There is a Facebook page called working cocker spaniels which are all cocker mad and very knowledgable so they will be able to help you there.

Our working cocker at a similar age.

We had a fantastic working cocker who for the first few weeks of his life looked like a Labrador puppy. He had such a short smooth coat and pointy face that we started wondering ourselves. But as he grew he became more cocker like.

Working cockers do look a lot more like springers. They don't have the domed head and long ears of the show cocker.

I would also say in my own experience that cockers can throw any number of shapes and colours in a litter. They seem to come in a variety of sizes and coats. Our boy came from a litter of ten and there were solid black, solid brown, black and white, brown and white, golden, blue roan and lemon roan, I think it was called. The litter looked amazing.

I'd give it a while personally and seen how she grows. She's still very little.

Florin Brown and white working cockers are very common.

I stand corrected.

I would say that if that is a Welsh Springer, and she's paid less than a grand, then she's got a bargain! They're a pricey breed.

Florin Your pup looks like chocolate roan, rather than liver/white ticked. Not quite the same. I do realise that the liver colour is present in cockers, but hadn't been aware that it was very common. Hard to tell, too, on photos when the light cn greatly aspect the appearance of the colour.

I think the worrying thing is that the breeder may have sold a puppy (deliberately or unwittingly) that isn't what she claimed. Any breeder should ensure that the father of the pups is the dog on the pedigree - there should never be a chance for another dog to get to the bitch.

I assume that OP, having had cockers before, really researched her breeder and did everything she could to ensure a pup from appropriately health-tested parents, too.

Yes mine is brown roan but brown and white also very popular some of his litter mates were just brown and white as was our other working cockers litter mates.

"Brown and white working cockers are very common."

Really? I've had springers and cockers my whole life, and live in a farming/shooting community and have never seen one. Closest was my tri, who was mainly black. White on her chest and ginger at her chin

To go back to the original question about DNA testing, what would you want to achieve by knowing the DNA make up? Would it be get a refund from the breeder or to post a review somewhere to make other people aware of the confusion deliberate or otherwise.

The reason I ask is we were in a similar position about a year ago with what we all thought was a labradoodle puppy. KC papers said the breeding details but vet and groomers have both commented that they think our dog is a retriever with no poodle in her. Vet encouraged us to get a DNA test done but we haven't as we reasoned that it wouldn't change anything and we had a great family pet in our dog.

slalomski

The OP would know what to expect from her dog re: temperament and health, for one thing - and for another, the breeder should not be a) misrepresenting her puppies or (innocently) b) allowing dogs other than the appropriate stud to get anywhere near a bitch in season. At best she's careless,at worst, criminal if this turns out not to be the puppy OP bought.

We all get the dog breed we like best when we buy a puppy, and often it is because there are particular things we require form the breed. This OP may one day have wanted to show or breed her puppy, or even in not, would have particular expectations re health, temperament, exercise requirements etc.

If this does turn out to be a springer/springer cross/working cocker, she is going to need a LOT more exercise than a show type cocker. Alls spaniels are active dogs, but working cockers/springers are on the go constantly.

We have one of each. A show Cocker and a Springer. As Spaniels there are many many similarities, however they are totally different in both personality and looks.

To respond to a previous poster, I don't think your dog is a Welsh springer- she looks brown and white. Welshies are always red and white. Hope you get it sorted OP. She is a lovely dog but I understand that you'd want to take it further if you hadn't got what you thought you'd paid for.

Thank you everyone. We decided not to have a test as they aren't quite as accurate as we believed.

Dh has emailed KC and the breeder but had no response from either so far. Between hospital appointments and the school holidays we haven't chased it, but will when then kids get back to school.

The reason her breed is important to us is her. I have had a show cocker before. Never had a springer or a working cocker. I want to make sure we give her everything she needs. She is my dog and I adore her and I have no intention of sending her back or even want money back. But I will need to learn more about springers or working cockers. It's only fair to her.

She is an amazing dog and her breed doesn't matter outside the care we provide for her. She is easy to train, great with our children. She is a dream dog and just perfect.

If it turns out the breeder isn't above board I think it's unfair she is selling pups as one thing when they aren't. Luckily I work from home and spend a huge amount of time outside, a springer would be fine (from what I have read so far) for us. But it wouldn't be fine for everyone. Which ends with dogs being rehomed. It's not fair on the dogs or owners. Luckily I have loads of time to train her (currently whistle training) and have time to do agility or hunting style training. Dd really wants to get into agility or fly ball.

I have also found a gun dog specialist nearby who also does training who is coming to meet dpup.

Just to add, a bitch can have a litter with several fathers, so its possible the breeder mated her with the stud, but she could have been "got" by another dog if the breeder wasn't keeping her isolated.

really? I genuinely did not know this. That could explain it. Maybe it's not a deliberate misleading on behalf of the breeder I got dpup from. I will keep this in mind.

florin she looks very much like your working cocker. She is quite small, which makes springer unlikely and working cocker more likely, but I know a few people who have small sprockers.

I assume that OP, having had cockers before, really researched her breeder and did everything she could to ensure a pup from appropriately health-tested parents, too.

Yes I did. I spent a year researching breeders and everything I could, even though I had had the breed before. It took me and dh 2 months just to decide if we should go for the same breed again. Because we wanted to make sure the breed suited our family, rather than just buying a cocker because we missed our old dog. We wrote down every time we left the house and how long we were gone for to make sure over a month we were home enough to get a dog at all. . I didn't work for the first 3 weeks she was home, everything was planned and prepared for. The kids were also trained before she came home in looking after puppies although they do have experience with their nanas dog who they help out with.

Thats why I would be really disappointed in myself if I missed something and picked the wrong breeder.

But the important thing is her. I want to give her everything she needs to be happy and healthy.

Asskicker

It looks like your girl has fallen on her paws whatever her parentage!

Please let us know what the trainer, KC and breeder come back to you with (if anything). I'm an incorrigble nosey parker .

People always used to ask us if our small springer was a cocker- she had the classic liver markings and everything. We have a cocker now and that looks like cocker bone structure to me.

The multiple fathers thing can happen to humans too, its just really really rare (too many hours spent on wikipedia...)