Choosing Cockapoo puppy - advice please

[EveryLittleThing]

Hi there - we are in a dilemma - we have found a brilliant breeder who has ticked all our boxes. She breeds cockapoos from 2 cocker spaniel bitches and a stud miniature poodle. One bitch is a working cocker spaniel and the other is a show cocker. Working cocker was due to give birth around now but her list was full so we are on the list for the show cocker which will be mated next month when she comes into season. However we have just had a call from the breeder to say that the working cocker has just delivered and had an extra puppy (girl) that was not seen on the scan - would we like it?

Very excited about the prospect of having a puppy sooner than anticipated but here is the dilemma:

a) being on the bottom of the list we would get zero choice of which puppy we get. I'm worried about ending up with a puppy that might not be the right temperament \ fit for us - I had psyched myself up and read all about how to choose a puppy etc and now that process will not take place. Breeder knows how keen we are to end up with the best possible temperament for our family and says that she does do her best to steer\match each family with the right puppy - after all she will have known them for 5-6 weeks and will have a fair idea of their personality by then. So we could end up with the right one for us.

b) if we wait for the next litter we will be top of the list and get first choice but it's a risk isn't it? What if she doesn't fall pregnant or doesn't have many pups or has all boys (we're keener on a girl but it's not a dealbreaker).

c) Plus DH is keener on having the working cocker puppies than the show cocker. I'm quite getting tangled about the difference - are show cocker cockapoos calmer? Are Working ones easier to train?

SO - Do we say - bird in the hand - whatever we end up with will be fine, there's not much in it and it will save all the angst of waiting and possible disappointments? Or do I be patient and wait and have a choice?

So sorry - I've waffled on - cannot believe I am getting so flustered over this!

Everylittlething if you are looking for low shedding you need to find an F1b or F2 I see a lot of cockapoos and in the straight F1s I would say around 50% shed the same amount as a cocker. In the F1bs and F2s from someone who is breeding type only about 15% of them shed.
As for a cockapoos being easier going than a spaniel I would take that with a massive pinch of salt. I own a working cockapoo F1 he has all the working traits for both the cocker ( ground dog - once the nose hits the ground you gave to make yourself the most exciting thing in the world) and poodle ( water dog - lying in even the tiniest bit of water). Now I deliberately choose this for the reason as I was looking for an agility dog and he is fast, accurate and brave. He is a good well trained dog, but I have attended an hour long training classes every week for 5.5years. Despite this people still mistake him for a puppy as he is such a nutter. One of my colleagues has working cockers and he is a far bigger nutter than any of hers.
Both I and my daughter love him to bits and he is amazing with my DN who has SEN, but I am a very experienced dog owner. I think with a first time owner he could be a massive handful.
In your situation I would actually go for a poodle definitely low shed, really excellent with additional needs (many are used as assistance dogs).

I also don't mean to rain on your parade but there isn't anything ethical about someone deliberately breeding mongrels when the dogs homes are full of them. And I also would steer clear of someone who owns both parents. It is more likely that she is breeding for the money. KC breeders are usually breeding to further a particular bloodline and they want another dog from it. They will go to great lengths and often travel abroad to find the right dog with the right qualities to match with theirs. I just think this designer dog thing has got way out of hand now. A cockerpoo isn't a registered breed and has no breed standard or traceability. I hope your puppy turns out lovely but when breeding two different breeds there just isn't any guarantee. I don't want to spoil your new puppy enthusiasm, you've agreed to it now, but this random breeding of dogs needs licensing and registering now.

Incidentally I had a working cocker. He was a fantastic little dog. Hard working, loyal, gentle and very well behaved. I wouldn't say he was hard work, he was great to train.

I believe it tends to be the golden that are more prone to the cocker rage, so I would avoid that colour.

Perhaps you should wait as like you say, you'll get first pick.

I can tell you I have a non shedding (I mean not a hair) show cocker who is the most neurotic, nervous dog you could meet (except you couldn't meet her because she barks at strangers until their ears bleed.)

We love her dearly but she is not the general stereotype of a show cocker. She is highly intelligent and easy to train though. But also lazy, very very lazy. She needs optimum weather conditions to even consider leaving the house.

I guess I'm trying to say that not even a well bred show cocker has reliable characteristics.

Scott, agreed entirely.

Adora That is EXACTLY how I would describe my little WC.

tab. Breeding for working I 'get' the most. Not that I am an expert, but would imagine specific skills and traits are looked for in each field? I know even less about showing. Hoping your terror is creaking along

Cockapoos are not a breed and as such it's much more difficult to predict established characteristic. Typically the people who breed them will tell you that you get the best of both breeds, but how exactly does that work? What stops you from getting the worst of both breeds?

I'd also be very weary of anyone who owns both mum and dad and uses them for multiple litters, that's not a breeding programme, it's a money making scheme. In a breeding programme the owner of the bitch makes a realistic assessment of her strengths and weaknesses and tries to find a dog that compliments her strengths and compensates for her weaknesses. You then see what the pairing produces and try again usually with another dog, trying to improve on the last litter.

Wouldn't cross him with anything... Ddog1 is another matter

I have a shih tzu poodle cross,he's lovely but he is hard work.He's too clever for his own good and a diva to boot. I'm pretty sure that's the poodle in him. He laps up attention and if he's bored he gets into mischief and because he jumps and climbs and opens doors and drawers then he will find mischief to amuse himself. FWIW his mum is a very placid calm and easy shih tzu and his dad is a clever poodle but Eric seems to have none of his mother's traits and double his father's.

I see that you are thinking that maybe a cockerpoo might be good for your daughter?
Having a son with Learning difficulties....I would say a cockerpoo, or poodles are breeds I would not choose for a child with ADHD - both can be hyper - and I would say you could have trouble with them both winding each other up. I have meet some really nice cocker spaniel - very calm. One in particular really makes me want to get one!!!

The thing is - cockerpoo's,except maybe the F1's and F2's that lonecat talks about, are not breed to a temperament standard.......so while you are worrying about whether you should go for a show cocker or working cocker ....you may end up with the poodle temperament...which is lively to say the least.

The thing is - with a reputable breeder, they will breed for temperament, and then will assess the puppies before they go to there new homes, to make sure they are right for that environment. `The "breeder" you have found is not doing that - she is doing it too make money....pure and simply, that is not where I would want to get my new family member from.

I have two dc with autism and Eric has been brilliant with them both. He seems to have instinctively known that ds needs him to be calm and he would always sit by his feet and wait for ds to interact with him. With dd he jumps on her knee,leaps into her arms, dances round her because he knows that she likes that. I think because he's clever and he's well bonded to us all he worked it out for himself that's not to say though that in the early puppy days they both found him really difficult and it's not something I'd repeat tbh any subsequent dogs will be adult rescues for definite.

needastrongone, awwwww, he looks just like our old boy when he was a young lad.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond - it is really much appreciated - I have read through all of your posts and I'm even more confused now haha! I don't want this to end up as a discussion on the ethics of cross breeding and creating "designer dogs" although I do fully appreciate the comments made about this. My prime objective is to find a dog that would be suitable for us as a family. We are looking for a family dog that can fit in with us (we are fairly active - with and ADHD child we have to be that way whether we like it or not but fortunately we like being out and about. We also like chilling at home. We want a dog that we can train so that we and dd and the dog can share a purpose together - such as agility. We have the time and the patience to spend with a dog, so weekly classes and hours in the park are not unfeasible. At the end of each day when we find time to chill it would be nice to have a dog that would chill with us.

I realise that a) no dog is going to tick all the boxes and that b) a lot depends just as much on nurture as it does on nature but all I keep coming back to is the cockapoo. How do I find someone special that can help with this? Yes I will be subjecting my wishlist to chance but from what I have read even on this thread chance would play a huge role in choosing a puppy from any breed or type of dog.

We had dogs when I was growing up and I really really miss them. But they were purebred pedigrees and they were hard work too, even though they were supposedly bred for temperament. At that time we were told that purebred dogs would be more highly strung than crossbreeds due to being more inbred - I just don't know what to think. I don't want to make a mistake because I am genuinely concerned about the welfare of the dog that becomes part of our family. Otherwise I would have just picked any breed or "breeder" at random and be done with it.

I know it is not a perfect scenario now that I have even more facts to confuse me - but I am more or less committed now. Even if I were to walk away from this scenario and go for, say, a pedigree cocker spaniel - I wouldn't have any further clue as to how to find a more ethical breeder - on the KC website they all seem to be breeders that produce multiple litters per year - what is the difference?

Arrrgghhh this is so hard!!

"Yep, I made that mistake just the other week, when I asked a lady that I met out walking if her dog was a cockerpoo, to be rather defensively told no, a Poodle."

Yay!! Don't Doodle with a Poodle!

Champdogs is a very good resource for reputable breeders - only breeders who KC reg and health test their dogs are allowed to advertise. It's not foolproof, but it's better than most other sources of puppies. They also have an active forum of breeders who will help you locate a good breeder.

Please don't buy a bred-for-money mongrel from a backyard breeder (and mongrel breeds always are). They are the reason that so many healthy dogs are put to sleep.

Rescue often have pups in, or even better, adult dogs who have been assessed. They arrive house-trained and ready to get on with family life. My current two are collie-type rescues and they have never put a foot wrong since they arrived in our home at 1 and 1.5yrs old. I've never been up in the night or mopped up messes either!

If you don't want a rescue, there are plenty of breeds out there that will do the job you want. Have you looked at soft-coated wheaten terriers? They're absolutely beautiful. Maybe some of the water dog types? They don't shed either. There are plenty of good breeders out there who are breeding temperament, health and confirmation. They're not out for money so you will get the very best dog they can breed.

Whilst not all KC breeders are good ones, I would expect all good breeders to register their pups. If someone is breeding purebreds but not registering them it would immediately make me wonder if 1) they're breeding more litters from a individual bitch than the KC will register, or 2) they're cutting corners everywhere they can to maximise their profits. It's also a huge red flag if a breeder is offering to register pups only on request, especially if they are charging more for the registered ones.

When looking for a pedigree my first port of call would always be the relevant breed club, either the national one or the appropriate regional one. They're usually really happy to put prospective owners in touch with breeders, sometimes even if it's just to meet their dogs and get to know the breed a bit more.

Champdogs is a pretty good site for finding breeders. You can refine lists of breeders by those who health test and in breeds with a pronounced work/show split you can choose which type you're after. There's also a section on the forum where you can ask for breeder recommendations.

I can't advise you specifically on a suitable dog for a DC with ADHD but these are some general musings and I apologise if I misunderstand something about ADHD, it's through ignorance.

All puppies will be very lovely. Puppies jump up, scratch, nip, chew inappropriate things, push small kids over, etc. Will your DC be Ok with this? Agility is enormous fun but dogs get extremely excited, there is some barking, some dogs nip or bite their leads, etc. Would your DC enjoy this environment?

If this doesn't sound like it would work how about working with a very reputable rescue which fosters their dogs to find a very specific adult dog that is more chilled and might suit your family better. Breed would not be that important then, rather temperament would be the crucial factor.

Assistance dogs do an incredible job but it's worth remembering that these are adult dogs with a specific temperament that have been trained beyond the usual pet dog requirements.

If you haven't signed a contract then you're not committed to a pup from this particular breeder..

I genuinely don't understand why suddenly everyone looking for a family dog seems to be utterly convinced that only a cockerpoo will tick all their boxes

My dog is very active when we're out, but beautifully chilled at home. We do training with him and dd does agility with him. He's bright and picks things up quickly and is easy to train and although he's not specifically non-shedding his coat is pretty easy to look after and were not wading through clumps of dog hair at home .. He's perfect for us, but he's not a cockerpoo ..

Yep, the early puppy weeks are fun....... cockers do have a reputation for being 'cockerdiles' during this stage, but we didn't find that to be the case at all to be fair, our cocker doesn't even 'get' tugging games

Champdogs site is better than most, we used this site in our searches for responsible breeders, although they wouldn't have cockerpoos on there, at it's specifically for KC recognised breeds.

The forum on Champdogs is a brilliant suggestion though, and I am sure that would help enormously. I would definitely peruse that one.

You haven't committed to anything . You were not even going to have a puppy from this litter OP, so the breeder will go to the next person on her waiting list. If she has an excellent reputation, she will definitely have a waiting list anyway.

I had quick Google for the 'breed' club for Cockerpoos, and then a quick scan of the website for the breeders. Some were, at a glance, very encouraging, with notes such as 'waiting list for 2016 full, litter planned for late summer' etc. Some breeders had websites, with a whole range of dogs on show, and a range of breeds, I would be running for the hills in that scenario. Sweet pictures of puppies sat in baskets etc...aaargh. Awful, awful.

I think the pedigree 'in breeding' would not occur with an ethical breeder, KC registered.

I agree, I am sure there are very many breeders of 'pure breed' dogs that are not ethical. It's a minefield.

I would reiterate that any puppy that you have will, I am sure, be lovely, as you seem committed and responsible.

Although, some of the other information on the website is excellent too.

OP, I do understand your confusion and frustration.

I went through this last year. I got 'sucked' into thinking we needed a poodle cross to be a good family dog. We have allergies in the family and first time dog owners. I did my research (so I thought) and posted on here for advice. I was asked to post a link to the 'breeder' and thank god I did because the lovely doghouse people researched a bit and told me what I'd gone for was a puppy farmed dog! I pulled out straight away. By the sounds of it your breeder sounds more responsible but I understand how you can never be sure.

I ended back at square one. I decided on a pedigree as I wanted to be sure as much as I could about what I was getting! I ended up contacting a breed club for Border Terriers who invited down to a show to meet all the dogs and cuddle them. Through them I met my KC breeder. It took months of waiting as her bitch hadn't even mated when I got in touch. Eventually though, we got our puppy. We had no choice of dog or bitch (as the litter was tiny and there was one still born). However we didn't care. She walked us through the first few weeks, helping him settle with us and was always on the phone for advice. What was most impressive was his birth certificate which told me KC name and his even great great grand fathers name and was longer than my own!

Anyway, our border terrier is a great family dog. He's friendly with everyone, house trained like a dream, loves his excercise, is as sharp as a button and chills out on the sofa with us in the evenings and lazy afternoons.

I really hope you get there with your dog (and you will). I've met lots of cockerpoos on my walks and they are lovely.

But Scott....as a one off....were they fully health Tested? Did they know what to do if things went wrong during labour? were they breeding looking at the lines and trying to achieve a desirable temperament? would they take your puppy back if things go pear shaped?....sorry I think that is just as bad. People who have a pet and think - oh I will have just one litter, without actually knowing anything about breeding.
Open your eyes - what you did is only marginally better than a puppy farm.
And I can't stand supposed professionals who name one breed as the perfect family pet....the number of "designer dogs" in rescues is horrendous. Every breed or rescue is perfect in the right home.
Our dog would not suit everyone but he is perfect for us - whereas a poodle, spaniel or any cross in-between would not ....putting aside the fact that I would never pay a fortune for a mongrel, when I can go to a rescue and get one that has been fully assessed, for a nominal charge. Also putting aside the huge welfare issues.

Every little thing, there are so many breeds that would fit your criteria.....the only thing you haven't mentioned is size, but I think you want small to medium.
As non shedding is a criteria here's a list off the top of my head (though this you are not guaranteed with a cockerpoo)
Poodle - though does need mental stimulation (but cockerpoo you would need to think the same)
Cocker - if you go working, I would say you would want to meet both the parents and ask the breeder what they are wanting to achieve in terms of temperament , with particular focus on energy levels.....the working cockers I know vary hugely interms of energy and mental stimulation - some are working lines, but bred for pets and are amazing family dogs, others are breed to work and need hours of exercise a day.
Schnauzer
Bison Frise
Lhasa apso
coton de tulear

there is also the Tibetan Terrier (not a terrier), Spanish water dogs and portugese water dogs - all of these breeds that I have met have been lovely, but I hear varying accounts of them in terms of training.

My personal favourite is the Barbet - the french water dog, but very hard to come by in this country, but is much easier to train than spanish and portugese water dogs.

Oh I forgot Whippet!!!!!

mrslaughan - yes both parents were fully health tested. We looked at all our local rescue centres and I am sorry to say they were full of staffie crosses and jack Russell's. Having had a terrier in the past I knew we did not want another, this is a personal choice which everybody has a right to make. It is the people that fill the rescues with these unwanted dogs that should be getting the stick, not responsible dog owners who want a dog right for them (this includes temperament and appearance). The vet gave me his honest, well-informed opinion, and I happen to agree with him. We all have our own likes and dislikes and the only people that should be criticised are the irresponsible breeders and puppy farmers. I have owned 5 different dogs in the last 25 years, 2 were free - rehomed via ads in the paper - both turned into beautiful family dogs, 2 are so called designer crosses which are also wonderful family dogs and the 1 I had problems with was a terrier from a very reputable breeder with a fabulous pedigree but it turned into a really difficult dog, putting me off terriers. Of the dogs I meet regularly on my dog walks, it is sadly the rescue ones which have the problems - I know this is a generalisation, but it is my experience. Sorry if I offend anyone, I do want to love terriers.....

Poor you OP! I did think I'd go and get my popcorn when I read the title!!

To answer your question (!) I'm not sure, but don't forget that socialisation is important too and will impact on how your dog turns out. Would you have more time to socialise if you got a puppy now, or later?

HI all -thanks for all the advice - sorry I've been absent - I've been quiet because I've spent the last couple if days really thinking about what you've all said - I've been on Champdogs, (thanks, Trionic) and spoken to some very experienced breeders from there, and one of them has really kindly invited me to go and visit them for a chat about all things dog, even though they have no puppy they want to sell me.

booboo - my dd would learn a lot (in a positive sense) from having a dog around - so yes, although the puppy stage might be a bit challenging, I still think the benefits of the long term proposition (hopefully a calm temperament - both dog and dd ) will outweigh the initial (comparatively smaller) time of excitable puppyhood.

needa - thank you so much for taking the time to look up the breed club and thank you for your encouraging comments - I do think the breeder I have found is trying their best to do things correctly and in full consideration of the welfare of their dogs. I know I will try my best with whatever dog I end up with - I just want to provide a loving home and ensure a positive and beneficial experience for my dd.

MrsLaughan - we looked at mini schnauzer - and nearly went for that but came across some terrible breeders (all KC btw) - and in the end DH just didn't really like the look of them. I did like the Tibetan terrier after we saw one on holiday last year but when I researched them all the info suggested they would not be suitable for us - as you point out the training side can be too challenging - and to back this up I have observed a friend of a friend who has one and it seems terribly unruly even though she invests a lot of time and effort into socialising it and taking it to puppy classes etc. I know I can't extrapolate from one example to a whole breed but I know what I am capable of and what I can and cannot take on - sadly, the other other breeds you mention don't appeal for one reason or another

dotdotdot looked at wheatens ages ago and spoke to someone from the breed club who said they would be too "bouncy" for us - I disagreed but perhaps should have pursued further. If all else fails, we may come back to these!

harryhausen - thank you for your understanding and I'm so glad you ended up with such a lovely family pet !

Scott - yes I agree with so much of what you say - sometimes I feel guilty not going to a rescue centre when there are so many dogs that need a home - but I just don't feel comfortable about doing this - and also, I do still worry about "pedigree" dogs - as you say, at the end of the day We all have our own likes and dislikes and the only people that should be criticised are the irresponsible breeders and puppy farmers - they are everywhere - and I am doing my best to avoid this trap!

I will keep you all posted,

ELT x