Any collie experts?

[inmyshoos]

My 15 mnth old bc, a rescue pup, from working parents. Just been neutered and so is on 'lead walks only' which probably isn't helping matters.

So he is a friendly dog. Slight typical collie nervous worried element but generally quite calm and sensible.

He has recently started looking quite wary of people he doesnt know out on walks. If they say hello he will enjoy a fuss but then when they go to walk on or we do, he will start pulling on their clothes with his mouth. Also if they just walk past without saying hello he will look like he might jump up at them and do the same.

He doesnt seem aggressive at all but without doubt this is a behaviour that needs dealt with before it perhaps escalates.
I did speak to a trainer who claims to know collies well and she was useless. Firstly said 'oh he is a friendly dog' and then said perhaps just muzzle him??! What????
The other trainer i know of uses eletric collars and i have very mixed feelings about his methods. We live in a very remote area well known for being behind the times which im sure is part of the problem in finding a decent trainer.

Does anyone have any advice in the meantime. Please?

I have been asking for a sit/watch me when people go past and treating for positive reaction. Anything else i could try.
He is a lovely boy and i want to do my best for him.

He is with me almost constantly and we walk miles each day plus always do new things to keep him stimulated.

Thanks for reading. Too early for wine but cuppa if you made it through my woes...

join the facebook group run by Sally Bradbury - Dog Training and Advice - she has 12 (I think?) collies and definitely knows them inside out!

all the admins are properly qualified behaviourists and if they don't think they can help you with online advice they can point you in the direction of a qualified behaviourist who can assess your dog irl

The problem with working collies is they are bred to be properly worked not walked for upwards of 8 hours a day. There are very few homes able to provide this sort of stimulation. The dog gets bored and due to the intelligence will amuse itself.

With the mouthing I would suggest having a high value toy with you on walks - if the dog goes to tug at someone wave the toy in front of its nose and it will tug the toy instead. Keep that high value toy just for that use only so it doesn't gradually lose its value. Once the dog realises you want them to focus on the toy, you can start introducing the 'leave' command at the same time. The word will then be associated with changed behaviour. You can then transfer the leave command to other situations too - chasing car/bikes etc

When exhibiting the bad behaviour ignore, when transferring to the good behaviour praise praise praise.

You will get there - it's not going to be easy but you will :)

^fwiw i have been fostering difficult dogs for various charities and have successfully had 41 dogs leave me to live with families. Only two haven't, one a collie and one another working breed and both went to working type homes (not farms).

Cannot disagree with auntiedee more!!

I have a working bred collie. A high drive one at that, they do not need to be worked 8 hours a day!
In fact, doing so will likely cause it to become overstimulated and deeply stressed.

Working farm dogs have sizeable chunks of the year where they are not working much and have to largely entertain themselves.
Additionally, when work is finished quite a lot of farmers then give the dog some quiet time to relax, otherwise the adrenaline stays raised and they become wired.

Collies become stressed and overstimulated very easily.

They need calmness and peace and quiet, if they can't work sheep then something mental like tracking or obedience is much better for them than something like agility or fly ball which done to excess will stress them out and take them over threshold.

If he is suddenly wary that could well be due to the neutering.
Neutering removed testosterone and testosterone is what gives dogs confidence.

Nervousness is NOT a collie trait!
Aloof yes, sensitive yes, nervous no.

The pulling on the clothes is most likely work drive - the instinct to stop things moving but it could also be caused in part by excitement.

Jumping and mouthing at clothes is likely excitement but if the people are moving then again, that could be the herding instinct coming out.

To fix - first of all I would teach him a good 'settle' and insist on it in the house.

Then I would look at diet as collies are especially sensitive to colourants, additives and don't react well to grains.
Most of the collie specific rescues advise raw diets for this breed as do a lot of breeders.
Food with a lower meat content can cause hyperactivity.

Then, I would continue doing what you are doing but I would also keep him on a long lead for now and as soon as he goes to jump or grab interrupt with a 'ah ah' sound and swiftly turn and walk away.
Herding behaviour applied to people can become very dangerous and needs stopping immediately.
He needs to learn that people are not under any circumstances to be herded and there will be a negative consequence for doing so.

Exercising for miles every day PLUS lots of mental stimulation is probably going to cause a hyperactive, hyper alert dog who is stressed and cannot physically relax in the end.

I have a working bred collie with a high work drive, this is a typical week for my dog....

1 walk a day, the duration varies - sometimes as short as 15 minutes, sometimes literally all day and we will stop outside pubs but on average probably an hour or two.

Sometimes those walks are 100% on lead.

Sometimes 100% off lead

Sometimes we play fetch with a ball in short bursts so walk maybe 30 mins, play ball for 5, walk 30 etc.
This is because if we play ball too long she can go over threshold and become disobedient, anxious and nippy.

Sometimes we might do a little (or a lot) training.

At home we do nothing.
That's right, nothing.
She is expected to sleep, chew an antler or play with one of her toys but if she gets too boisterous with the toy bouncing on and off the sofa for example she has to settle for a bit.

If I walked her for miles everyday plus mental training she would be an absolute nightmare, completely hyped up and unable to relax.

He sounds like a very lucky pup, OP! We have 4 collies aged between 17 years and 4 months. Either all the grown up dogs have been very sensible or we've forgotten how it was to train them! The pup goes to a school run by a behaviourist, and the driving theme seems to be about keeping calm and rewarding the good. At the moment I am trying to stop the pup from launching herself at anything that moves. In practice, this means a pocket full of tiny treats, and dropping them whenever she does not respond to the stimulus. So far, she is learning to look at me rather than throw herself at the traffic/person/bike... that hoves into view. Collies are very very good at restraining themselves. One of the lovely things about collies is that they can be as calm or as bonkers as you like although it's really important probably for our sanity to allow plenty of space for the calm!

Thanks guys for all replies.
I will have a look at the fb page, that sounds ideal.
He is kept busy or at least occupied most of the time but when i said wslked for miles each day i dont mean hours on end of walking. A typical day would be walk at around 8am until 8.30 or 9 depending which loop we do round the forest. Then home, i eat breakfast while dogs rest then i feed them. Generally I then do work around house and they snooze. He is calm in the house, spends plenty time snoozing on sofa!!
Then he will come with me wherever i go. Either to town for shopping/errands or to a friends where we would walk with her dog in a different setting. Also generally just comes wherever i go and will have walks throughout day. He is generally calm and lovely but does seem to be developing this habit. Part of the same problem but he gets excited if he is in garden and people walking past, he will run up and down fence line and mouth them if they try and stroke him. Recently i have avoided him being out in garden to stop this.
The other thing, about the 'nervousness'. It's things like when we were working on the 'shut the door trick' my labx banged it shut first time and was happy to continue pleased he had got it! The collie shut it and because it slammed with a bang he wouldnt do it again.
Also when ever the horse clears its nose he will jump out of his skin, or if a balloon pops he will hide. Stuff like that.

He is a lovely dog. Very keen to please. I want to give him every chsnce of being a well rounded dog.

I can't help too much with the fence line because if my collie sees a cat she's terrible for fence running, j thinkthe fence running for her, and probably your dog too is frustration at wanting to interact with the other side and not being able to.

But with the noise sensitivity I would slowly desensitise, get a recording of a gun going off for example on YouTube, play it so low it's barely audible and treat the second the noise comes on and gradually increase the volume.

Herding breeds can be a touch noise sensitive if not exposed to them at a young age.

Also, take a look at CSJ Herbs
I don't know the name but i know they do a blend for anxiety, I think their blends are fabulous and would highly recommend them.
The lady who runs the company, Ceri, is a shepherd and breeds her own line of sheepdogs so very knowledgeable on the breed.

My mum used a water bottle to stop her collie jumping up and chasing cars. Anyone who he was near or who regularly drove past (mum lines in the country down a private road) was given a water bottle (one of the ones with a drinking cap) and if he jumped or chased he would get squirted. Didn't take long for him to stop. Might be worth a try?

Not a good idea.

Collies are very sensitive, even saying no a bit too sternly can make some of them run and hide.
Using water in this way can cause them to become very nervous and fearful.

There is the risk also that the dog will start becoming aggressive towards people because it associates them with getting squirted.

I have two rescue collies, both very well adjusted members of society - now! I think you'll get lots of great advice from the FB resources mentioned but I will say, the most useful thing for my dogs development has been my state of mind. I've never shouted at them in anger, I don't even raise my voice when I recall them or give them an instruction and I wouldn't dream of using any aversives such as water or (shudder) electric shocks. They will also get a cuddle or a fuss whenever they want one. Despite this 'spoiling' they're both happy, friendly and obedient dogs.

I do recognise their limitations though. They're not desperately keen to meet strangers or interact with strange dogs and I don't let them loose around small children as the need to 'control' an over-lively flock is definitely still there, especially with my boy!

Collies are super-sensitive and they naturally want to get it right for you all the time. If you can harness their energy, gain their trust and encourage their compliance you'll find them fabulous companions. My dogs always look to me first for approval before they talk to anyone or go anywhere and that's exactly how I want it.