When do puppies stop being puppies??

[WhotheWhat]

I suspect the answer is 'never' but..........

I'm in the early stages of getting-a-dog thinking. For 3 days a week any dog would be alone (with cats) from 9-5 except for a hour or two in the middle of the day with a dog walker. Obviously this isn't a good set up for a puppy, so I was I'm thinking that I should look for an adult dog who would be okay with this.

I'd still like a reasonable young dog - but what age is old enough for the dog to be 'established' in its character? I was kind of thinking that any dog under two would still need extra attention and guidance, but that's not based on anything other than that when dogs start looking like adults and not teenagers.

We always had adult dogs when I was growing up so I've never seen the maturing process close up.

Looking to get a small (not super-tiny) Steady Eddie type. I'm not bothered about looks and ideally would get a rescue dog. I'm in central London, but with a small garden and a big park. Any suggestions as to breed type also gratefully received! DCs are 4 and 6 and are generally calm and always gentle with our cats)

Any views?

I would seriously reconsider leaving any dog alone with cats.
My dog is crated whenever she's alone.

While a lot of dogs come to like the cat they live with, mine loves my cat, they are still dogs and accidents can and do happen.

Most dogs can't resist a running cat and they can be hurt accidently even in play. Sometimes quite badly.

No idea about cats and dogs left together but I'd say Eric a poodle shih tzu cross at 16 months is now a dog rather than a puppy in so far as he is much more reasonable,calm and steady and not quite the PITA he has been particularly during his teenage phase.

I wouldn't count on being able to leave a dog in the same room as cats either, even if they get on well and the dog doesn't ever chase when they run (some don't) there's still a lot of potential for either the cats or the dog to be injured by the other one. You've also got the logistics for things like the cats' food and litter tray to think about as they're pretty much an all you can eat buffet for an unsupervised dog.

As for age and being left...about 18 months would get you past the puppy and teenage stages, but, you'd have to take into account that an older dog may not have basic training, that being rehomed can cause separation anxiety in dogs that were previously fine being left and that it can take rehomed dogs a few months to settle in to a new home.

Hmmmm - I hadn't even thought about the dog/cat dynamic!! I was thinking that the dog would stay downstairs and the cats could remove themselves from any situation via the stairs or the catflap. Does this set up work? Because of the cat thing I had ruled out terrier types , but I'm not sure what that leaves me with - I'm not keen to get anything with breathing problems either. Are there any small types left??

As I said, very early stages of thinking whether this would be a good idea. At least it sounds like I got the age about right!

I'd say about 2. If you are going to rehome a dog, which is a lovely thing to do, the rescues may be able to guide you towards a dog which might be ok with being left on its own for that amount of time. And also which dogs have been cat tested and are good with cats.

We have two dogs, one would be ok being left, but the other would hate it.

And good point tabulahrasa about the settling in period. I had thought that the first few weeks or so I could arrange for two visits a day and gradually build up.

Maybe the whole thing is a bad idea - no time for a pup and limited pool of small non-terrier adult dogs with no ishoos.

It's not whether cats have somewhere to go, it's if they can get there fast enough with a dog chasing them...from a standing start, dogs are usually quicker.

Also, will they try to get away? Or will the beat up the dog if it's doing something they don't like - that's what one of mine does, sadly for the dog, doing something that cat doesn't like can often include just existing too close to her.

You've also got to have something in place that a cat can fit through, but a small dog can't.

Breed isn't as much of an issue with adult dogs (although there are plenty of small breeds that are neither terriers or brachycephalic) because they can be cat tested or have previously lived with cats...you're not hoping that breed traits do or don't show up, they'll have passed that stage and can be assessed.

There is a lot that go wrong when dogs are with cats unattended, even with an escape route.

As tabulahrasa said, dogs are pretty fast, often faster than a cat.

Sometimes it's the cat that is the vicious one and if the dog retaliates the result can be disastrous.

Sometimes the problem is not aggression but love.
Some cats love the dog so much that they like to follow it round, play with it, share its food etc.
I have one of these cats and a fortunately very sociable, tolerant dog.
But there have been 1 of 2 occasions where the dog has growled and shown teeth when I haven't been quick enough and the cat had tried to 'share' her food, sometimes the cat likes to jump on her head and bite her when she's sleeping - she either plays with her or (rarely) walks away but if I wasn't present whose to say she wouldnt get annoyed and discipline the cat, injuring her accidently?

Not to mention the emotional stress a cat will feel if there is a big scary dog that chases it which can lead to aggression, toileting problems or even upping sticks and moving home.

There isn't much point focussing on breeds.
most dogs will chase cats, a sizeable proportion will harm them too if they catch them.
It's across the board, there are cat chasers/killers in EVERY breed.

Generally speaking, a puppy that is taught from day one not to chase or intimidate the cats will get along fine with YOUR cats.
There is no guarantee how they will react to cats outside though.

My in laws have a jack Russell terrier and a jack Russell cross Yorkshire terrier, with two cats - high prey drive breeds

I have a working bred collie and a cat - another traditional 'no cat' breed

My BIL and SIL have a pug and a chihuahua who go mental at the sight of a cat.
I have no doubt they would attempt to kill one if they caught it - two breeds commonly thought to be low prey drive

I would probably get an older (3+) dog that is thought to be cat safe but either crate it, take it to a (good) daycare with only a few dogs or confine it to one room when your not there.

I've always left my cats and dogs together. Three different dogs at different times, a greyhound, a terrier type and now a small crossbreed. Never had any problems.

Cats have multiple escape routes and high places. So there is the cat flap they can get out of, a massive high up scratching post. Cats can also get on the dining room table and kitchen worktops if they needed to. The door to the utility room is left open with a stair gate on it. The rest of downstairs is open plan but there's a stair gate at the top of the stairs so cats can get up there and not be bothered.

My terrier type was six months old when we got him and was left two days a week and managed ok. How about getting two dogs so they're company for each other?

Yes, I was wondering whether two would be happier. Especially if they are bonded already. Or would that be double trouble for the cats?? The cats are still young enough to be learning (16 months) and they are very well adjusted. However, they are used to having their personal space respected (although they also do remove themselves if the DCs are being loud).

Lots to think about.

Wrt rescue dogs, do rescue centres actively try to match people and dogs? I got the impression that you see one you like then they assess whether that particular dog would suit. It would be ideal to have an experienced person to look out for a dog that could fit with what we can offer. I'd happily wait a good while for the right one to come up.

doggydaycare for puppy or older dog is another option?

No idea about cats and dogs, sorry.

Wrt when puppyhood ends, my understanding was that that is breed/size dependent?
Larger breeds will still be considered 'pups' up to 2 years and often take longer to calm down and mature.
Smaller dogs - do they mature quicker??

Yes, good rescues will go to a lot of effort to match dog and new home as they don't want the adoption to fail.
We got our rescue greyhound from an organisation who fosters every one of their dogs (small outfit ) which means that they have a very good idea of what every dog is good/bad at, whether they get on with kids/cats/other dogs etc etc.

Worthwhile choosing your rescue carefully

Worthwhile choosing your rescue carefully

Yes - that does seem to be the key to it all. A whole new thread I feel...

Thank you all for your wise words. Next step - dog testing my cats!

Most rescues I've had dogs from are very careful about rehoming as they don't much want the dogs returned. It's really worth a visit and it may help you decide who you would like to share your life with. Our dogs have been attacked by cats more than once. It's not always the cat who comes out worse off! It's also worth investigating potential training places. They are a mine of information and if they are any good, you should be welcomed with open arms to watch.