Advice about dog body language

[happygardening]

I've recently met a very nice lady in my village who has a dog. I suggested we walked our dogs together but she told me that she had a bad experience when her dog was a puppy where it barked and growled unprovoked very badly at another dog, so upset was she that three years down the road she walks alone in places where she's unlikely to meet other dogs. She's recently been to a dog behaviourist but was still lacking in confidence to walk where there were other dogs.
My two dogs are of similar size and very well socialised and very non aggressive so I suggested that we walked together, initially I would bring just one so as not too overwhelm her dog.
We met up on neutral territory, my dog wagged his tail and looked friendly her dog showed her teeth when mine got too close, mine backed off a bit, we went for a walk let them off the leads and apart from a the odd episode of teeth bearing when again mine got too close it went very well. My new found friend was delighted. My dogs are confident and outgoing (as am I) and her dog seems to be growing in confidence meeting a quite a few other dogs on our walks and simply ignoring them as does my friend. We've since done it three of four more times now my friends dog only shows her teeth maybe once sometimes not at all. I've now introduced my other dog to our walks, mine was friendly, teeth baring initially from my friends dog, mine backed off and then they all were off leads together doing their own doggy thing. Pleased my friend rang her behaviourist to tell her all about it, she didn't seem so pleased, she said the dog was unhappy and shouldn't ever show it's teeth to mine ever as she was learning that this behaviour works.
I'm no behaviourist but surely my friends dog was saying to mine "don't get too close mate as I'm a little afraid of you and don't know you yet" mine being well adjusted go "ok getting the message" and back off. Now they are happy too be very close to each other, even in a confined space; whilst manovering a kissing gate no teeth baring at all or walking down a very narrow path.

All sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
I'm no behaviourist but that sounds like dogs that are understanding each other and getting along fine.
Interested to see what others say......

if i read this correctly her dog growled when it was on a lead...
my dog does this too but is fine when off lead. she's a nightmare if another dog tries to sniff her when she's on her lead and i always ask people to keep their dogs away. I presumed it was fight or flight kicking in...
I'd be interested to hear what other people think...

Not a behaviourist either and I wouldn't be bothered by that either...but,

Getting the desired result from unwanted behaviour does reinforce that and in future with other dogs you've got two potential problems, if she displays that behaviour to a dog that doesn't back off she'll then have to escalate her behaviour or if she displays that behaviour to a dog with it's own issue it may not react well and again escalate the situation.

Personally I'd prefer having to be a bit picky who she meets over not meeting anyone, but it really depends what the behaviourist was working towards as an ultimate goal.

Getting the desired result from unwanted behaviour does reinforce that
^^ this is what the behaviourist is driving at. She's working towards eliminating the anxiety that underlies the teeth-baring, what the dog is learning from your experience is that it's ok to be anxious and bare her teeth at other dogs because it works.

Ultimately it depends on whether the owner is happy with her being unpredictable in general but tolerating your dogs (for now...) Or whether she wants to address the underlying cause of the aggressive behaviour and so ensure that her dog's reaction is calm in general

The behaviourist is not too bright. She (I'm assuming she) feels that this lady's socially inept and unsocialised dog should not be permitted to ask another dog to back off, albeit in an unsubtle manner?
Look, it would be much nicer if no dog ever had to growl or show its teeth to any other but this dog has not had a lot of practice in relating to colleagues, and suppressing this warning behaviour by correcting it can actually lead to abrupt snapping.
Dogs behave in a much more relaxed and natural way when off lead and tend to be far less confrontational. It's because they are picking up less tension from their handlers and because they are free to move around and express body language freely.
Yes, a dog who discovers that growling works will try it again if she feels threatened again, and it could spark a conflict, but it sounds like this previously solitary animal is learning and enjoying socialising.
Well done OP, you and your dogs have really boosted the happiness of a nervous animal.

I'd suggest that the owner of Madam Nervy avoid narrow paths, canal banks etc as much as possible. The beach or open parkland is much better. This is because on a narrow path her dog is forced into a face to face confrontation with every approaching stranger, and head-on meetings are terribly rude in dog body language and awfully nerve-wracking for the shy animal. Polite dogs prefer to meet on great curving arcs and can assess and avoid each other if they so desire.

"suppressing this warning behaviour by correcting it can actually lead to abrupt snapping."

Well yes, but a behaviourist should be working towards changing the state of mind that creates the behaviour, not suppressing the behaviour itself.

Anyway, I came back to add that the reason I'm saying is be ok with it is that from my perspective a lip curl and a growl would be so much progress that I'd be out doing the dance of joy if that was my dog, lol. He's very unlikely to ever be ok enough to mix with other dogs, so if the behaviourist was working towards making your friend's dog able to do that it's not so positive, if she had a smaller aim it's not so bad.

I think we are in agreement anyway, but isn't the state of mind that creates a growl or teeth-baring, in this case, the apprehension of a formerly solitary animal at being approached by another dog?
And isn't the best cure for that apprehension being introduced to exactly such a dog and realising that "hey, this walking thing can be fun! no need to snarl!"
And isn't that exactly what OP and her two cheerful dogs have started to achieve for this lady and her pooch?
I reckon the behaviourist is either jealous or sees her patient getting cured too quickly!

"And isn't the best cure for that apprehension being introduced to exactly such a dog and realising that "hey, this walking thing can be fun! no need to snarl!""

Well no, not exactly because the dog is anxious to start with, ideally you'd do it in smaller bits so that she never gets anxious enough to display it...and you can't guarantee that what she's learnt is that it was fun after she relaxed, she may have learned that dogs behave if she makes them.

So for a dog that may have been capable of a fairly normal (at some point) interaction it could be a step backwards...it just depends on what was being worked towards and how.

Apparently this dog has never had a "fairly normal interaction" with other dogs. I felt if she wasn't anxious about other dogs her outlook on life would be pretty similar to my younger dog, on her own she's obviously cheerful and playful and today she gave a little come and play with me bow to him and chased him a little before slightly loosing her confidence. All three dogs sniff the same thing together and she doesn't bare her teeth at all and she goes to them quite happily. But if the younger ones enthusiasm for games etc sometimes gets the better of him and if he touches her with a paws she slightly shows her teeth.
Interestingly we met about 6 dogs in a small area all had to be on leads, mine were oblivious confident and cheerfully walked past them and my friend was delighted that her dog seemed to follow there example, so she does seem to be copying them. She looks genuinely pleased to see them when we first meet up until they get very close, so I keep them about 5 feet away from her until we've got somewhere where they can go off their leads together, if we have to put them back on their leads later she doesn't mind them being close by.