Which breed? feeling overwhelmed!

[Theonewiththreechildren]

Hi all, I'm a long time lurker but don't post often. My family and I have been thinking about getting a dog but I'm feeling a bit confused. We really like spaniels and we thought we had decided on a cavalier king charles spaniel as from what I've read they seem good family pets. However I'm concerned about the health issues with this breed. Obviously I would insure any dog I get but I'm worried that no matter how well I think I've researched breeders etc I could still end up with a dog that suffers.

So now I'm looking at cocker spaniels. How are these as family pets? I have 3 children aged 8,6 & 3. My main concern is that I've heard people say you can never wear them out! I'm a stay at home mum so whilst I am around much of the time, it's inevitable that the pup would have to be left alone at some point in the day (for example when I need to go to supermarket or school run) and I would hate to think it would be bored and unhappy because I hasn't worn it out enough!

Can anybody who has a cocker tell me how much exercise/simulation they need. Is there a great difference between show and working?

I should've said we live in a modem detached house but garden not huge. In s village surrounded by woods and fields so plenty of lovely walks. My husband and I have never owned a dog as adults but had family dogs as children - we do have a cat and a tortoise though.

Thanks in advance for any help, sorry if this is garbled - thinking as I'm typing and confusing myself!

I don't own one, but yes there is a huge difference between show and working cockers.

Show cockers are much less on the go, they still need a decent amount of walking, but as with any dog walking only tires them out so much anyway, you can have a very fit bored dog.

Training, games and giving them something to chew on when they're alone will do way more towards combatting boredom than just exercise alone...and much easier to fit into your day than huge walks.

Most adult dogs of any breed would appreciate an hour to an hour and a half of walks, some will manage with a bit less, most can do more if you're up for it - most people do a long and a short walk in a day, I do 45 minutes to an hour through the day and about 25 to 40 minutes at night for instance.

I'm going to be controversial and say that I don't think there is a big difference between the two.

They look very different, the show cocker coat can be troublesome to maintain but I personally don't buy the whole working lines are so much harder work than the pet lines argument. In any breed.

There are lots of mumsnetters on here with working cockers so hopefully some will come on.

I personally prefer the working lines.

Thank you both for your advice, I'm just worried about choosing the wrong type of dog. Honestly, this is harder than deciding to have my children!

That's the sort of routine I was planning (long walk & shorter walk) so at least I'm on the right track with that. My mum is the one who said that a cocker wouldn't be a good idea - having said that she has a Westie who will walk for miles and miles.

Would you agree that a cocker would be a better choice than a Ckc?

I have already bought the training book I've seen recommended on here to make sure I'm up to the job. But I'm quite looking forward to the training side of dog owning - am I setting myself up for a fall? I'm definitely not over confident but I want a well trained dog, whichever type I end up with.

I like CKC, I like them a lot...but because of the health issues I wouldn't have one either, so yes I'd go for a cocker over one.

"I personally don't buy the whole working lines are so much harder work than the pet lines argument. In any breed."

I think it depends on the breed, I find working and show type cockers very different, the working type ones I know are definitely more busy than the show type ones I know, other breeds I don't see a huge difference in traits though.

"But I'm quite looking forward to the training side of dog owning - am I setting myself up for a fall?"

No, training should be fun (I think it is) and with a nice intelligent biddable breed like a spaniel it's usually pretty straightforward...I don't mean it'll all be dead easy and you'll never get anything wrong, but, they're pretty forgiving of mistakes and pick things up quickly.

Hi, I can't comment on cockers, but I can tell you that we are in a similar position to you, ie at the research stage of getting a dog. For a while I was all set on a cavalier king charles spaniel, but like you the health risks put me off. I'd found an ideal breeder who did all the necessary health tests, but I just kept thinking how heart breaking it would be to have a dog and it develop one of the horrible conditions that the breed can suffer from.

So after further research we ended up looking at whippets. Not at all what I pictured when we first considered getting a dog (I wanted small and fluffy!) but basically reading the sighthound threads on here sold it to me! They have a reputation for being great with children, and I admit their laziness and easy to clean-ness really appealed! What sealed it for us was when we booked tickets to Crufts in March and visited the 'discover dogs' section. We spent lots of time visiting all the different breed stands, and both my children (age 6 and 9) fell in love with the whippets! We haven't got one yet as we are waiting til after our holidays, but I think we've made the right choice for us. Good luck in deciding!

Thanks for the replies. So it looks like a show type would probably be the way forward? As I'm a bit of a novice with all this I'm so worried about choosing the wrong breed and regretting it. Especially as my DH is not as keen as me - I don't want any 'I told you so'..... I want to be the one saying that to him

jgm - I have thought about whippets but as I said my husband is not as keen but he loves spaniels! He didn't want the cat either but I catch him talking to him in a baby voice when he thinks I'm not there

So really what I'm waffling about and trying to say is that with the right training/exercise etc a cocker shouldn't be any more hard work or tiring than any other dog?

I haven't a cocker, but know quite a few.....actually mostly working lines. From my observation their is huge variation in the working line. I know working lines that are essentially breed as a family pet, and they are fab. They need I would say average amount of exercise, and a little mental stimulation.

Then I know a couple of working clockers from what I would call true working lines...these would not make good family pets , they are high energy high demand. What I mean by true working lines is they have been breed to work all day in the field, that's what all their parents do, and that's what these two dogs are being trained to do. They need probably at the bare min 1 1/2 hours twice a day and these walks need to involve "work" of some kind.

I'm with you on thinking that a cocker will be likelier to be healthy than a CKC.

My personal observation (and my experience is not vast) is that working-line dogs are a lot more curious, active and generally busy than show-line dogs, and thus need more exercise and mental stimulation. Definitely true with labradors, and if you consider that fox terriers are the show version of the JRT, true there as well.

Is there anyone you know who has a cocker or who knows someone with a cocker, or can you speak to a breeder to ask if you can be put in contact with someone who bought a dog off them in the past? That might help...

Well that's the other thing that's confusing me.....how do you know which are the good breeders? I've been looking at adverts on various websites but obviously they all make their pups sound the best, but how do you know? I've heard that even puppy farms can be registered on the kennel club website - is that true?

I've seen one advert saying that the pups are half show and half working - would this count as a cross breed or not?

Also I'd quite like to time it so that we could get a puppy at the start of the summer holidays so that I'd have a good month to settle it in before going back to the chaos that is normal life. So with that in mind I'd like to know how to find a breeder who's puppies are not even born yet and also because I would prefer it not to have a docked tail and some adverts say this has already been done.

Sorry for all the questions, I really want to get this right for puppy's sake as well as the family's.

Ah I see - I have to say my husband really wasn't that keen on cavs, that was completely my idea and I suspect would have been seen as 'my' dog, but as soon as whippets came into the equation he has become even more keen than me and the children, which I am taking as a good thing as he is therefore more likely to get involved in the poo picking up, rainy walks etc! I do think it needs to be something that the whole family can get excited about, even though as you say I'm sure they will grow to love whatever we get!

The breed club can answer a lot of your questions :)

www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/cocker_faq.htm
www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/lookingforapuppy.htm

I'm handling a show type cocker for a family member at the moment and he makes for a wonderful family pet - affectionate and biddable with middle-of-the-road exercise and training needs. The coat maintenance is really not to be underestimated though.

I prefer working lines because of the ones I've met, and based on the owners of working line dogs that I have met they appear to be more grounded, balanced dogs.

I have met my fair share of show / pet line retrievers, spaniels and collies and have seen lots of hyperactivity, guard type behaviours and OCD/anxiety problems.
Of the show/pet cockers I have not met a single nice one. Not one.

But admittedly, this could be due to all sorts of reasons unrelated to being a pet/show line like poor diet, poor training, bad breeding, under or over exercise/stimulation.

In contrast, every working cocker I have met has been utterly adorable, none of the working bred dogs I have met have had any problems (that I am aware of at least) and most of the ones I have met have lived or are living very average, normal 'pet' lives which is why I find the working lines being harder belief hard to believe.
Although I suppose an exceptionally high drive worker could be a bit of a handful.

It is true that poor breeders can indeed by kc registered!

For a good breeder your looking for someone who has health tested the parents (with papers to prove the results), who isn't breeding more than a couple of litters a year, who has the mum available for you see and asks you lots of questions.

The half show half working is still a 'pure cocker' BUT unless the pups are kennel club registered on the breed register you can't show them.
It's a bit of a gamble taking one on as you have no idea of knowing what kind of drive it will have, it could be very keen to work from the working side or completely disinterested or a bit of both.
Working and show cockers look very different also, so there's no way of knowing which parent it will look like as an adult.
But it's still a cocker.

Re docked tails.
These will be working line without a doubt.
Docking is illegal unless the dog is a working dog.

Just to be contrary I have had pretty much the opposite experience to butthole and the very worst example of OCD I've ever seen in a dog was in a working cocker. This may be area dependent; I work in a veterinary practice in a very rural area and a lot of the cockers we see are 'proper' workers, insanely high drive dogs from field trialling lines which would not thrive in a pet home.

Going to a cocker breed show was a novel experience, I have never before been swamped by so many giddy, soft, happy little dogs in one go. Neither type would suit me, personally, I have big well 'ard working sled dogs but the little show cocker has fit right in to his family and, coat maintenance aside, doesn't demand as much exercise and training time as some working types would in the same situation.

Thank you all. I'm actually feeling slightly more confused at the moment but thank you for all the advice and links - at least I am now armed with more info to mull over!

I actually think I am leaning slightly towards the working type despite what I said earlier

Butholelane....that's interesting re the docked tails. In your opinion, if the tails are not docked does this make it more likely that they're from a line of pet dogs rather than working?

I don't really mind how it ends up looking, and definitely wouldn't be interested in showing, character and demands are more important to me and that puppy and family have a happy time together

Hi. Our black and tan cavalier is nearly 12 and apart from one trip to the vets due to something that was my fault (poor puppy :-() he's got nought seriously wrong with him. I just think as a first dog they are so sweet, SO easy, do not climb the walls if they don't get walked, they are cheap to keep, love every person they meet and to be honest I trust my boy 100% with my children. The walking thing really is great as if something comes up, which it always does with young families, he doesn't turn into a flamin loony if I don't walk him. Seriously have a think. I spent 18 months researching everything from cockers to dobermanns and must've spoken to dozens of breeders. Not for one moment have I cursed my Cavalier in all these years.

I, like everyone else can only comment on what I have personally experienced and in my experience, the workers have always been nicer.

toboldlygo made a comment though that really got me thinking...

My collie is from working lines, 'proper' farm dogs and she is extremely confident, relatively bombproof and a very balanced dog, high work drive perfectly balanced with a healthy dose of self control.
Now, recently some have complained that there is a shortage of high quality working border collies as there are lots being bred for sheepdog trials.
These sheepdogs are exceptionally fast and flighty and unsuitable for most farmers.
For a good farm dog, you want a dog that works more slowly and calmly.

I wonder if the exceptionally challenging dogs mrslaughan and toboldlygo are all field trial dogs and perhaps like the trialling collies are a bit wild? Too fast and flighty as opposed to slow and steady?

And maybe the dogs I have seen are workers bred for regular work I.e by a gamekeeper or someone who just does a bit of recreational shooting.

I think it more likely they are pet or show although it's quite possible that some gamekeepers or breeders of working dogs may keep the tails intact I think it more likely that they would be docked.
I am a bit on the fence with docking because while I think it horrific to lop off a body part, especially one as expressive as the tail, the working dogs do tend to dive full pelt into brambles etc and sometimes the injury done to their tails is beyond horrific so I can understand why they do it.

I think there is a definite trend towards a 'flashy' trialling dog and it's quite possible that for every successful one of those produced another will reflect the worst traits and be neurotic/unsteady/obsessive etc. I see the same phenomenon in breeding and training border collies/WSDs for agility - in some cases they almost become incapable of doing anything else.

There is of course a middle ground of dual purpose dogs - unfortunately gamekeepers and the like seem less likely to embrace health testing...!

Going off on a tangent now and really not my area of expertise - bar one fuzzy show cocker - but an interesting idea.

God yes, I always try and put people off agility/flyball collies and steer them towards the farm/working bred.
They (fly ball agility line) seem to have oodles of drive with next to no self control and are obsessive and flighty as a result.

That's true re health testing sadly, my collie is from untested stock.
Mind you, I guess an experienced gamekeeper probably knows their line inside out so perhaps the risk is low?

I'm really confused now!

LinkDat - your dog sounds perfect and just what I wanted, but I'm scared that we wouldn't be so lucky. I'd hate for the experience of dog owning were spoilt by health issues.

Currently chatting to DH and oldest Ds. At the moment we are all leaning towards the working cocker. We're focusing on breeders who say they want family homes for their puppies because I assume this means they're not from actively working parents?

Thank you so much for all your advice, I appreciate the help.

If they are working cockers and the breeders are asking for family homes then I expect we're talking about pups who are ready to leave their mum soon who are showing a low work drive.

I can't be sure for cockers because they aren't 'my' breed but certainly in collies, you know from about 6 or 7 weeks which pups are likely to be excellent workers showing good drive and those which are likely to be a bit disinterested and crappy workers.
Sometimes a pup with little to no drive can, in collies anyway, suddenly show an interest around the six to 12 month mark but generally, you know as little puppies whose going to work and whose not.

This I think, is a truly fabulous link that sums up my opinion and is well worth a read if your thinking of a working cocker.

www.felsteadgundogs.com/workingcockerspanielsaspets.htm

Re docking, I'd never again have a dog from working lines, of a breed normally docked, who is undocked. Because even if you don't work them, they still go charging into cover and you end up with a tail injury which will not heal, several trips to the vet, an op for the dog, pain for the dog and a large bill.

I can see all the arguments vs docking, but I never want to see an adult dog through a tail amputation again.

Sorry, slightly off-topic, but perhaps (yet another!) point to bear in mind.

Also (more on-topic) I know a working-line spaniel kept as a pet: she was the least 'hunty' of the litter, no real interest at all, and is a fantastic family dog.

Sounds like you should go for a show cocker. We have had both. Most recently with young children a working cocker which was lovely but required proper walking - will your young kids be up for this (day in day out)?. For the first 3 years it was also very lively and excitable - this might get annoying after a while.....In my experience working cockers are known for being lovely kind, good natured dogs but little bit nuts.

Some friends in our village have a lovely show cocker. It is fun and spirited, not particularly bright, great with kids, loves going for walks but will also relax without having to have had a 3 hour work out....

Butholelane - great link thank you! That has made me feel a lot less nervous about the breed.

Mehsmum - Interesting point about the docking, I've always thought of it as a bit barbaric but that's made me look at it in a different light. I do love to see a waggy tail though!

I will keep on researching and reading my training book.