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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Original poster

Pedigree puppy turns out not to be...

39 replies

jesspip · 18/04/2015 16:27

We bought a KC registered Working Cocker bitch a few months ago. She is from a respected KC reg Gun Dog breeder and we researched very thoroughly beforehand to get what we wanted. She is to be my husbands new gundog and has lots of FTCh in her lineage. (We are a rural family who shoot and have 3 other dogs).

Everyone has commented how much like a black Labrador she looks, from the beginning and we thought we should just wait for her spaniel-hair to grow on her ears etc. This hasn't happened and she not looks like a black lab with huge ears and a docked tail. She is, however, the worlds most adorable dog, house-trained already, not a massive chewer, and knows about 7 commands already. She is 5 months and we all love her dearly.

Yesterday the breeder called me to see how she is getting on. I mentioned she looks like a lab and he said that was why he was phoning as another purchaser has said the same thing and wants a refund. The breeder now wonders if one of his labs got to the bitch before he took her to the stud. He has suggested that he will do a dna test to check.

The problem we have is that we have all fallen in love with her (my 3 kids adore her), so taking her back for a refund is not an option, but this is all the breeder is offering. However, we didn't want a made up/cross breed (Cockador) we wanted a Working Cocker. (She will still make a great Gundog though I am sure). We will have to give up her KC registration and we will not be able to breed with her (if we had wanted to). Also the breeder said that the lab he suspects has bad hips and we might be lumbered with that as well....

Can we demand a refund and still keep the dog, or what % refund could we expect? I don't know what to do. Any advice?

OP posts:
GraysAnalogy · 18/04/2015 16:29

I always thought DNA was done beforehand. Learn something new everyday.

If it was me, I'd love her for what she is what she isn't but I would probably expect a refund and quite a significant one at that.

AlpacaLypse · 18/04/2015 16:34

Crumbs what a mess! Have you posted in Legal as well btw?

Yes, she'll probably do very well working. I've walked and got to know three Springadors, all bitches, and one is doing brilliantly with her Field Trials; the other two are family pets but both utterly ball obsessed and very obedient so I am sure would have thrived if trained.

I think you should ask for your money back less some reasonable expenses, for example the vet fees the breeder will have paid.

The rescue I work with charged £150 for the Springador we rehomed to the Field Trials lady.

JustAScreenName · 18/04/2015 16:36

Are Cockadors a thing? Can you see what the going rate for one is, and then see how that compares to what you paid for a Working Cocker? If you're going to keep the dog (which you should of course), it would make sense to ask for a refund of the amount between what you would have paid for this dog had you known what kind she was, and what you actually paid for the dog you thought you were getting.

AlpacaLypse · 18/04/2015 16:38

Have realised that I never said you should offer to keep the dog but with the price adjusted to reflect the fact that it's a crossbreed with potential hip score issues.

I doubt he wants to take the dog back, she will be useless to him. I would think he just wants to put the whole sorry affair behind him with as little damage to his reputation as possible.

kormachameleon · 18/04/2015 16:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
jesspip · 18/04/2015 16:54

I know she will make a great working dog, so that's not the problem, neither is what breed she is tbh. Its just that we paid for one thing in good faith and got another with a potential huge problem of bad hips...

The other problem is with the massive rise in cross-bred dogs with no medical history or papers being sold by backstreet breeders for extortionate prices, "cockadors" are being sold for almost what we paid for a pedigree dog, there's about £100 in it, so asking for the difference back is not an option really.

My husband is inclined to demand a full refund or he will rubbish the breeders reputation in the right circles, but I am more inclined to just think, "Oh well, never mind".

OP posts:
Eastpoint · 18/04/2015 16:59

We had a rescue PWD which had been returned to the breeder by the original owners due to a bad hip x-Ray at 9 months. The original owners got all their money back & we didn't have to pay for him. He did however need painkillers from 18 months and had a hip replacement at 3. I'd be very careful about paying anything for a dog which could easily have hip issues. Why isn't the dog with hip problems fixed? Something the breeder should think of.

LaurieFairyCake · 18/04/2015 17:11

I would get a decent hip check and DNa test before deciding anything.

I think you should get a refund or partial refund and I would think the breeder will offer something. I think you should ask the breeder what sort of refund he's offering for your (lovely) mongrel. The onus should be on him to preserve his reputation.

Your dog sounds fabulous though and honestly I wouldn't be that bothered if it was me - you have a dog that can pick up dead birds Grin and that was your goal

JustAScreenName · 18/04/2015 17:12

So your husband want to ask for a full refund, and you're inclined to think "oh well, never mind" (which I'd interpret to mean no refund at all?), yet asking for the difference back isn't an option because it wouldn't be much....?

You'd be happier to have nothing at all than to have a refund of £100 or whatever? Confused

Original poster
jesspip · 18/04/2015 17:15

No I just meant I don't know what to do! But I've had some good advice here, so thank you.

OP posts:
Northernlurker · 18/04/2015 17:20

I think the breeder should refund the money. He has mismanaged his business and should bear the loss.
If I were you I would get your dog's hips checked as well. I would also be inclined to tell all your friends about this. Not sure anybody should be buying from this breeder.

GraysAnalogy · 18/04/2015 17:39

It's a mongrel though, whether it's a 'cockador' or not they might be designer dogs that are fashionable right now but it's still a mongrel and not what you paid for so despite what prices you've seen, you should get a refund. A big one. Especially due to the vets Bulls.

That said no matter what she is shes a lovely addition to your family. But you were mis-sold her and it's not on

Duckdeamon · 18/04/2015 17:44

Why does the breeder want her back? What will he do with her?

I would keep her and go to the small claims court if necessary to seek recompense.

TheoriginalLEM · 18/04/2015 17:50

at least the breeder is being honest. I would be inclined only to seek financial recompense if there are hip problems.

SconessMcFloness · 18/04/2015 18:04

The difference in price is not £100 when you consider the poor hip scores....you can't get a good price for a dog with health issues. I think the breeder will be open to compromise.....there's no harm in asking what they'd be prepared to offer if you wished to keep the dog as a pet bearing in mind the potentially huge vet fees you may incur.

MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig · 18/04/2015 19:28

Can I just add something before you all decide it's definitely been crossbred?

Our old boy was a working cocker. I can remember, when he was a few months old, my dh and I remarking to each other that he looked for all the world like a lab. He had a smooth coat and long legs but the long spaniel ears.

Once he got to about nine months, I think, his coat grew a bit more and he began to look more like a spaniel.

Five months is nothing. I think you've jumped the gun a bit here. I don't know if you've had working cockers before but if you have I'm sure you know that they come in all shapes, colours and sizes and I'm sure all puppies probably look a bit different.

I think the other puppy owner has overreacted. I'd leave it a bit and wait and see what she looks like when she's actually fully grown.

Didly · 18/04/2015 20:50

I agree with those that suggest you should have a dna test done and if she is part lab then have her hips looked at and based of the results of that decide how much of a refund to ask for.

Can we please see a photo of her? Am sure she's gorgeous

JoffreyBaratheon · 18/04/2015 21:01

In that set of circs, I'd expect a full refund, TBH. Luckily for you the dog will probably do what you need it to be able to do. How unprofessional is that, though, to let an entire dog of another breed even get near a bitch on season you're breeding from and selling pups from.

daisydotandgertie · 18/04/2015 21:05

I don't think it can ever be reasonable to demand a full refund and keep the dog too. What does the breeders contract say?

Given the dog is worth roughly the same amount as a working cocker or as a cross, the money as such is irrelevant. Also, as the dog was bought as a shooting companion, not as a field trial hope, there's not much of a loss their either. It will do the job just as well, I'd imagine. A non pedigree dog is not permitted to enter field trials, so not sure what the cross up thread is entering.

There has been an accidental mating - and even the very best, most committed breeders in the country with multi dog households will be lying if they say they never happen. They do. I think the breeder has done the right thing by ringing you to discuss the problem. His committment can't be in doubt.

The difficulty with a DNA test is they're not 100% accurate and can't 'prove' parentage as such as far as I know. They can tell you roughly what breeds of dogs are involved but not with any guarantee.

I think that a bit of time needs to pass to come to a decision. Her hips can't be scored until she's a year old - and of course even if the dodgy hipped lab is the shagging culprit, there's no guarantee they'll be passed down.

Misskittykat · 18/04/2015 21:07

It is not a mongrel it will be a crossbreed, a mongrel is a dog of non determined parents obviously this dog is potentially a cross of two known parents. I would demand a dna test, a refund, a vet check and then love your pooch :-)

Awks · 18/04/2015 21:08

Ah I feel your pain. Wasn't from a place outside York was it? We bought a working cocker 2 years ago, called him Jarvis and everything. Sadly he kept growing and looking more and more springer like till we couldn't ignore the fact that he's no working cocker. We love him though and he's ace. It's just so annoying - we didnt bother doing anything because he's such a wonderful dog - just not the breed we chose at first.

LaurieFairyCake · 18/04/2015 21:10

At the moment with no daddy determined it's a mongrel Grin

SmartAlecMetalGit · 18/04/2015 21:52

daisydotandgertie The KC offer a DNA profiling service which can be used to determine the true parentage (based on DNA samples from all potentially involved dogs) of an individual/litter. A test will definitely be able to establish whether the lab or the intended stud dog is the sire of OP's puppy.

MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig · 18/04/2015 22:18

I'd have the DNA test if you're really not sure. It probably is a cocker though. Like I said, they do come in all shapes and sizes, they're not always the little whippet-types you sometimes see in the beating line. Sometimes they're almost springer sized. My old boy was quite big for a cocker but he was definitely a cocker.

villainousbroodmare · 18/04/2015 22:26

I think you should be able to get a refund without returning the dog. After all, what's the breeder going to do with her? However, I imagine the hips will be your problem if they do turn out to be dysplastic, and so I would suggest having her insured with one of the better companies asap, if you haven't done so already.