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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Anything I could do?

78 replies

Focusfocus · 17/04/2015 14:07

Will keep this vague, if possible.

Friend got a puppy 1 year ago from an online advert. The seller (a) refused with various excuses to have them come and see and friend paid for seller to come by with four pups to show. (B) seller brought four pups from three different litters, each few weeks apart. Friend doesn't accept this is a puppy farm, but that it's just a regular family living in a nice farm.

Okay. Friend seems very keen to have a skinny dog. The way to do this they concluded at the outset is to not feed the puppy (8 weeks) more than 2 meals a day, a fistful of kibble each meal. Eventually after a few months the vet remarked at a pre neutering check up that puppy looks underfed. Feeding continued as normal.

Fast forward one year. The dog is now 1 year old. Weighs 7.5 lbs. it is NOT. Toy breed. I repeat, we aren't talking chihuahuas. Every bone is visible. Friend recounts to me how the dog is disciplined by hitting. Sometimes hitting hard enough to hurt their hand. It's all said jokingly, and swiftly.

Dog has come to stay with us. The perpetual posture is a crouched cower, low tail wag and walking along the sides of the room, following the walls, ears back, skeleton crouched and tail in a low wag. Every bone is visible.

Friend has left food for the dog. Fistful of pedigree and fistful baker morning and evening. I have been asked not to worry with letting dog out too often. Dog is often left at 8:20 till 6 and has never soiled indoors. Dog is 1 currently.

Can someone please tell me that I am wrong in feeling sad and angry.

OP posts:
Focusfocus · 17/04/2015 16:08

For the last time,

  1. I am giving the dog what it is saying on the pack.
  2. I have made an appointment to take it to my vet,
  3. I am constantly cuddling and holding her as often as she is comfortable, and letting her be warm and comfy, snuggled up to us.
  4. I am prepared to report to RSPCA depending on talk at vets.

There's nothing more that I can contribute to this thread. I am glad there are others in this world who are less unsure of themselves. I have nothing else to say, I will so my best for this animal.

OP posts:
Arsenic · 17/04/2015 16:16

I am glad there are others in this world who are less unsure of themselves.

Fair point.

It is easy to forget not everyone finds assertive action easy.

But your assessment that she wasn't very underweight was a bit alarming.

CheeseandGherkins · 17/04/2015 16:19

www.bakerscomplete.co.uk/Products/Product.aspx?BrandRangeId=3&BackState=

Click on the feeding guide tab. Unless you have massive hands then you are underfeeding that dog. A Jack russel should weight between 13 and 17 pounds, whereas that dog only weighs 6.

Take that dog to the vet ffs. If you said emergency they would see you today. If you won't, let me or anyone else that cares about animals.

Buttholelane · 17/04/2015 16:20

If the dog behaves as you say and is as thin as you say, then I think that if you film it just cowering about the house, get a couple of vets to write a statement that in their professional opinion the dog is underweight, neglected etc then I find it very hard to believe that the rap a would not have grounds to remove the dog.

If necessary tell your friends that someone must have reported to the rspca.
A busy body neighbour maybe.
The rap a came round and seized the dog.
There was nothing you could do.....

Buttholelane · 17/04/2015 16:21

**RSPCA

Focusfocus · 17/04/2015 16:38

Dog has been with me under 24 hours. In which time I fed it what owners said. I am now going to feed as per pack instructions. Vet will see us tomorrow. I've had a look at the RSPCA form. Spoken to couple of rl friends. Thanks for all the advice everyone, like I've said, I'll do my best for her.

OP posts:
moosemama · 17/04/2015 16:40

Focus if you report to the RSPCA while the dogs' with you, you could tell the owners that someone reported you, having seen the dog in your care. That way the blame lies elsewhere, but the dog will get the help it needs.

If I were you I would take it to your vets asap, tell them the whole story and if necessary ask them to make the report to the RSPCA.

moosemama · 17/04/2015 16:42

Cross posted.

Totally agree with Butt from what you're describing of the dog's condition and behaviour there would be good grounds for the RSPCA to remove the dog and if that happens because 'someone reported you for having an underweight dog' the owners can't blame you.

SmartAlecMetalGit · 17/04/2015 17:46

If the dog is so severely underweight and has been underfed for so long I'd add in more small meals rather than making their current meals suddenly much bigger.

Tripe is also very good for putting weight on a skinny dog. Pets at Home sell Nature's Menu frozen tripe mince which you can just defrost and add a little to the dry food.

Focusfocus · 17/04/2015 18:06

Last time dog was here, their food ran out in three days, so I fed it 3 small meals like mine, of which one was Millie's Wolfheart, and two others a homemade meal I do of tripe, liver, some veg, and mince. It was the winter, dog loved it thrived on it, went back I think 1.4 kgs heavier, the tripe and liver especially was a favourite. That was a while back, dog was still a young pup, and similarity to mine. However, that didn't go down well with owners at all, and they lectured me on canine obesity and related illnesses all of which are valid points on their own.

I am not going to think more about this till I see my vet tomorrow. I will take it from there. I've just served up some home food I make for my dog, with aforementioned stuff, which has gone down very well with guest dog. They are currently playing with a teddy bear. I will try to report back tomorrow after speaking to my vet. They had seen her before when she was here, but weren't "overly concerned" in their words. Waiting till tomorrow.

OP posts:
insanityscatching · 17/04/2015 18:08

Our dog Eric weighs about 7.5lb which the vet said was the right weight for him and he is quite lean because he's not greedy and exercises a lot. He stands 9 inches tall to his shoulder and is a poodle shihtzu cross. I'd say any dog much taller than that at that weight would be really emaciated

Redwineplease42 · 17/04/2015 18:45

Pretend it had bad tummy so you took to the vets who seized it. Hope they do how evil !

MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig · 17/04/2015 19:00

Please don't be put off by harsh responses on here. You were concerned enough to post, remember that. You told us the dog was underweight, cowering and probably beaten so what did you expect people to say? I'm afraid you really can't let your job interfere with the position you have been put in. You now have the chance to get this poor creature to a safer place. Please come back and tell us that you have done that.

CheeseandGherkins · 17/04/2015 19:02

I don't think you should go entirely on what the vet says, you have seen the dog cower and act terrified and you have also been told they beat her. There is no excuse for that.

If the vet says that dog is ok to go back to the owner then I would report them as well. If you want to find a GOOD home for this dog then I can help, I' sent you a PM earlier.

Coffeethrowtrampbitch · 17/04/2015 19:02

What redwine said, I would claim the dog became ill and when you took it to the vet they removed it because it was underfed.

If they give you any hassle at all I would say that only my insistence that the animal was not mine had stopped me from being arrested for cruelty, that might make them think and stop them blaming you.

Thank you so much for what you are doing. You are saving that dog from misery despite worrying it could cost you your livelihood, you are doing the right thing absolutely, and I hope you will be able to avoid hassle from it's owners whilst doing so.

MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig · 17/04/2015 19:25

Just a thought - is the dog microchipped?

Couldn't the vet get the owners details from the chip and pass them on to the RSPCA for prosecution?

Focusfocus · 17/04/2015 19:48

Right, a lot happened in the past hour and half.

DH was taking mine to the Vet for her post illness check, and I decided to do this now. We took guest dog along with us and took her in to our Vet's office.

He examined her for a long time, feeling her all over, checking her eyes, gums, mouth etc, but largely feeling her, a lot. I recounted everything I have said here.

First of all - weight - He says, this is not a true specimen of the breed I have in mind. He says it is clearly the dominant breed, but that he can see distinct Chihuahua traits and that this is one of the many untested, unthought out crosses that backyard breeders and puppy farms are notorious for. He explained with reference to features in her that he does not recognise this as a true specimen of the breed but rather one of the many versions of "Chi" mixes. He said - he would be happier if she was about a kilo heavier, she meausred 3.3 kgs on both reception and inner office scales. But that he was not extremely concerned. I pointed out that to my eyes she looks thin. The Vet said - with reference to her frame and with his hand on various parts of her torso, that she is very muscular, lean, yes, but not what I am calling "a bag of bones". He said people often come into the surgery saying their dog is "just right" when in fact they are obese, and he has seen dogs being called "a bag of bones" when they are in fact just right. He felt her ribs which I pointed out and said - yes, a kilo more would make him happier, but this is not a bag of bones to his eyes.

Food - no question. Crap food is being fed. she needs to come off it ASAP on to a nutritious diet and gave options A B and C.

Punishment and cowering - This was a serious chunk of our talk. He said this practice has in the past taken animals off people for neglect and abuse. He can see she is timid, but equally, the animal he is seeing is alert, confident, and engaging every step of the way. He says he would be very concerned about the declarations (long ago now) of hiting her, but that he cannot see evidence of abuse in particular - her timidness is something he has seen in many animals, and he cant conlude that this is direct proof of abuse.

I called my freind on the way back immediately and reported a different version of this conversation. I said we had been to the vet for mine and she came along. that Vet is "very concerned" about her weight and she neds to gain at least 1 kilo and needs to be ASAP moved to diet A B or C. Said that Vet is "very put off" by the cowering and was suspecting me of hitting - so I need to ask you - do you hit her. She said absolutely not. So I asked why say it to me then, and she said - I meant we punish her. I asked to clarify - she said oh we tell her off very very harshly as we are firm about rules. But we dont slap, hit, or push her. I said - look,. my Vet is very very concerned and has his antenae up now and probably has the microchip details. I am moving her on to a good diet ASAP and when you return in 14 days she should just continue on it. I also said they have noticed her cowering and grilled me throoguhly on how we treat her and have the microchip, so I would geenrally pay a great deal of attention to her emotional well being. I mentioned its very common for dogs to be seized these days for signs of neglect, and you do need to sort out her cowering, show her lots of love and have her gain this extra weight - because its caught the eyes of other people now.

She seemed completely oblivious of Pedigree and was convinced she is feeding him a great diet.

I am ASAP moving dog to good diet, I knew something looked un-breedlike about her, and if there is some Chi mixed in, and if my (very respected, experienced) Vet says she is muscular and lean, and smaller than her absolute ideal but not malnourished, I am going to go with it. i am also going to follow up on her progress from now on and see how things go. But at the moment I am not doing anything further except focusing on getting her to eat better over the next 14/15 days or so.

OP posts:
KatharineClifton · 17/04/2015 20:00

Thank you Focus.

kormachameleon · 17/04/2015 20:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig · 17/04/2015 21:22

Well done Focus, that's good to hear. I think you need to keep on top of this though and have another serious talk with this woman if you decide to let her come and collect the dog.

Personally I think I'd be tempted to keep it.

Focusfocus · 17/04/2015 21:45

I'll see the dog from time to time as I go to that city for work and will be staying over with the dog in May and see it in it's own surroundings for a few days. Also, we are happy to adopt the dog, this much the lady knows.

Right now I feel much better that a Vet we respect very much has had a very detailed, and lengthy look at her and has taken a lot of time to talk to us.

I am also happy that she has eaten a small meal of liver, tripe, mince and some veg thrown in and is sleeping inside an igloo bed snuggled next to my furry lump dog. I look forward to the next fortnight ahead of me, and that kilo get just come on anyway ;).

PS: I've investigated the origins of the dog a bit and looks like it came from a puppy mill not far from where the owners live which specialises in various "Chi"s (think JackChis, PooChis, and decipher these - TzuChis, Cavachonchis.)

I wonder why - a year ago - when a women turned up at their door with four puppies of slightly different ages, say between 7-13 weeks - demanding a pretty negligible price - why did their radars not go off? I appreciate they are new to the country, but honestly - four pups in one bag doesn't reek of puppy mill?? Anyway that's a different matter I guess. The vet also said something about the original parents or grandparents potentially having health issues and pointed out features I forget that show various red flags. This came up today and owner said - the lady who got her said they have a farm. I said well, don't you think she meant puppy farm? Owner had a hard time understanding the concept.

Oh dear. Anyway. Dogs asleep after a full meal. I am off to bed.

OP posts:
Gymbob · 17/04/2015 22:19

massive hugs from me focus, you are fab Thanks

OliviaBenson · 18/04/2015 08:54

Well done focus- that must have been a ver difficult conversation to have. I'm glad you are showing the dog lots of love and affection. Hope it all works out x

basildonbond · 18/04/2015 09:17

I think I must be missing something here Hmm your vet said she was basically fine didn't he? No evidence of abuse and not underweight, if at the lower end of normal

I would be more concerned about the dog being left on its own for long periods of time but don't be surprised if the owner is furious when she comes back to find her dog 25% heavier than when she left her ...

Greenkit · 18/04/2015 11:10

If that were me, the dog would have run away been rehomed, given to the RSPCA and I would then cut all contact with these nasty people

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