So upset: fear losing our aggressive dog

[MillyMollyMandy78]

We had two dogs: cavalier King Charles spaniel and sheltie. Been together for two and half years and got both as pups. Sheltie is youngest and we took care in socialising her thoroughly but she has always been nervous and quite skittish. Plays rough with spaniel and sometimes nips him if she feels she needs to tell him off but otherwise get along well: she adores him actually. Well couple months ago was an incident which we had put out of our minds until recently. Spaniel resting on sofa nowhere near her and she launched herself at him with no warning/ provocation and started biting him continuously. DH had to actually pull her off him, and spaniel just submitted, rolled straight onto his back. Completely fine ever since.

Last week we brought a rescue CKC spaniel who is very placid, calm and very similar to other spaniel. Sheltie nipped him a few times near food/ toys etc but we were told to leave them to it as all normal and things would settle in time. Today she attacked him with no clear reason, on two seperate occasions, to the point that I had to pull her off. Spaniel just yelped and tried to get away. It was horrid.

Sheltie breeder/ dog trainer said she would take her back for a week to help/ assess situation so we drop her off Sunday. I love her, but she has always been hard work in various ways. I just can't see how we could ever have her back - she has attacked both dogs very viciously, absolutely no warning & very calm body language, so how can we ever trust her? Can't see the break helping really except to give us a break: she has been desperate to get him again all evening so have resorted to seperate rooms.

I feel like a failure: shelties are not aggressive dogs and she comes from good parents. I just don't understand - she's curled up on my knee as we type and she's my sweet little girl again: never thought I'd lose her so soon but don't see any other option

You've got a few options, get someone in to see if it's trainable or keep them all but separately...some multi-dog households have separate rooms or crate and rotate.

If you decide to rehome, you might be better keeping the one with the issue as she'll be harder to rehome anyway.

Have you had her checked by a vet to see if there's anything causing her pain?
Post on the FB dog training advice and support page, and look through their files. Qualified, modern trainers/behaviourists answer your questions, and can recommend modern, ACPB (?) behaviourists in your area. Don't search for one yourself, as any charlatan can call themselves a dog behaviourist and cause much more damage by using disproven outdated crap like 'packs' etc.
In the meantime keep them separate. Fed in separate rooms, kept apart at all times.

Thanks for the advice - will try the fb page. We wouldn't have to rehome sheltie as such cos pretty sure the breeder would have her back. We did the whole seperate rooms thing all day yesterday and we both agree it's not something we could do long term - mentally exhausting and not nice for the dogs either.

The rescue has various medical problems and is completely deaf so would be difficult to rehome. But this also means he is more vulnerable - she was following him around to try to attack him and he was unaware of her approaching do couldn't even escape.

We are going to get her checked out by vets to rule out any medical problems just incase.

If this was just a problem with the new dog then we would prob look at rehoming him but the fact that it also happened once with our older dog is a concern. Don't feel like we can trust her around him either! Also, this may be an overreaction but I'm laying awake here wondering if we can trust her in any situation eg with young kids. Several in DHs family including our nephew who will be crawling/ walking soon. She gets nervous around them so we always give her sometime with them and lots of praise etc then close her somewhere she feels safe and secure rest of time. But what if she suddenly feels threatened by one of them? Is she gonna bite the face of our nephew if he crawls too close to her? I feel the trust has gone

Quick update - things have been really improving. We got the all clear from the vet, have been doing all the correct things re feeding seperately etc, and had a behaviouralist in which was helpful. Then tonight things turned with no apparent reason. She atracked the spaniel worse than before and it was awful. She would not relent and then continued to try to get to him. Attacked him again later, as soon as she had the chance. We spoke to the behaviouralist at length and she felt that it would probably continue to get worse, and agreed with us that it was not fair to either dog to have to live with the stress. We made the sad decision to rehome the sheltie and took her back to the breeders earlier tonight. It seems the best for all dogs concerned, and the older spaniel is better with our original dog, and would have really struggled to find another home. It looks so awful though, and i feel shitty - we are good people and just wanted to give a lovely dog a happy home. Feel like it has backfired now and eveeryone will be judging us! Plus, even though she was hard work, i loved our sheltie so much! Can't believe after all this time, we have sent her away.

Milly you must be in pieces. You sound like an experienced dog owner who did everything possible but it just didn't work. You couldn't make it right for all 3 dogs and that must be tormenting you. Will you be informed when sheltie has new home etc?

Thank you for your message Burning - today has been absolutely horrendous. I even phoned in work to say i wouldnt be in as i just couldnt hold myself together at all today. Both me and DH really regretted last nights decision. It made logical sense but we both love our little girl to pieces and want her back. We have already spoken to the breeder (also a friend and the behaviouralist concerned, so she knows the full story) and she has been waiting for our call... Figured we would change our minds. Now trying to get hold of rescue (no answer) to discuss our concerns about his health problems etc and see if she can place him with one of her experienced foster homes or someone that would be able to take on his specific needs. He is such a lovely dog and we tried to do the right thing, but it hasnt worked out. Will be sad to see him go, but we just want our little girl back.

Please let us know how you get on x

Managed to get hold of rescue yesterday and lady was very understanding when i explained the problem. She said unforunately these things do happen and asked if we could keep him until she had chance to arrange foster care for him - hopefully early next week. So thats what we are doing - next few days just us and the spaniels. Breeder is keeping shelite until spaniel goes back. Sheltie very happy playing with breeder's shelties, getting treats, cuddles etc. spaniels happy here together. I feel so much better now that we know we are keeping our girl - couldnt imagine life without her really.

However, i feel so guilty and worried for spaniel's future. I know we will never know what the future holds for him but i worry that the shelter wont mention the syringomyelia symptoms, or the new owners wont spot it/ ignore it and he will be left in pain as the condition progresses. I also worry that he will struggle to find his forever home. I know we have tried everything and that really it is our sheltie that has decided he cannot stay, but i feel so bad. He has settled in so well with us, learnt all our routines, made great progress training with hand signals etc, and seems really happy here. He is actually a perfect dog for us - so friendly, lovable, such a happy boy and eager to please... And SO much easier than our sheltie! But she is our little girl and we love her.

I don't think there is an easy way out here sadly Milly - but why do you not trust the shelter? They passed the spaniel boy to you - did they not tell you all this when you took him on, is that why you suspect they won't be honest with next prospective owner?

Also is the sheltie being ok with the breeder's other dogs and if so I wonder how come?

Shelter didnt notice deafness or possible syringomyelia symptoms. I know that sounds bad but he was in a pen with another dog for comfort as too stressed on own and he compensates for the deafness very well eg by observing and copying the other dogs. And the syringo symptoms are sporadic and prob not spotted in a kennel environment. If you came into our home, you would prob not notice anything unusual and would only notice he was deaf because of our use of hand signals etc. i have no reason not to trust the kennels, just a bit of a natural worrier i guess.

And no signs of aggression with the breeders dogs but i expected that. We have boarded both dogs in their home several times and we go to a training class/ social thing run by the lady every week so sheltie is very happy and secure with both the breeder and her dogs. Our girl is not a nasty dog, she is quite timid and insecure which is why she is not accepting the new dog. Breeder says she will also be picking up on the fact that there is something 'wrong' with him, even though she does not understand fully. Therefore she is feeling the need to assert her position more and constantly remind him Of his place.

With other dogs we meet she is always very submissive, (and is like this with the breeder's dogs),but in the house, our other spaniel is so submissive that she is top dog and feels that she can boss him about a bit. She also plays rough a lot, but this is just when she gets a bit overexcited and then a bit nippy with him, due to her breed. Apart from the one off attack she has never attacked him, apart from the odd nip to tell him off for something. He just takes it from her unfortunately, though we do step in if necessary.

"We spoke to the behaviouralist at length and she felt that it would probably continue to get worse, and agreed with us that it was not fair to either dog to have to live with the stress."

Don't really understand the Behaviorist's response.

This was after just one session?

Why did she/he feel that the problem would continue to get worse? Did she/he say what they felt the problem was? Also, what recommendations did she/he make after that one session/assessment?

Sorry ... don't mean to sound challenging, but there is such a lot at stake for you here (and for your Sheltie) that, in your position, I would want all those questions answering. Your Sheltie is reacting. The one thing you can bank on (in my opinion) is that there will be a reason/cause ... and there is the starting point for the Behaviorist to work with you.

Your new posts make me so sad.
And quite angry.

Your sheltie attacked both dogs. Not just one.

Your sheltie has a lovely home with her breeder, she's having a blast playing with all her friends.

Your poor spaniel is sick, you rescued him and now through absolutely no fault of his own your sending him back there because you prefer the sheltie.

I'm assuming you still have one spaniel as you originally said you had two.
Let's hope your sheltie doesn't start attacking the original spaniel again else that poor bugger might end up being shelved as well!

Well today we are wobbling again and we know we need to make a final decision by Monday.
Butt - your last post raises a lot of our doubts. We bought sheltie as companion for our spaniel but he seems more relaxed today without her here. The sheltie has lots of good points but she is overbearing and a lot of hard work. And in all honesty neither me nor DH can say we truly prefer her and today we have begun to be concerned about bringing her back here - as you said, at moment all 3 dogs are perfectly happy ... It is hard to figure out what to do but we are trying our best to do what's right for the dogs.

Dish - yes we only had one home visit from the behaviouralist but she is also our trainer and has known us for over 4 years and is familiar with both our original dogs. I have regularly phoned/ text her during this time for advice etc. She felt it was going to continue cos we had no probs for couple of weeks then big incident with no warning so felt that sheltie wud poss never accept him and wud take every opportunity to reassertion her position due to her insecurities. Some dogs will never accept another adult dog into the home and she feels our sheltie is one of them

So what will happen to the Sheltie if you leave her at the breeders? Will she stay there forever or be rehomed, or sent to a shelter for re-homing?

Definately not a shelter... Breeder will keep her indefinately and may rehome her IF somewhere suitable comes up. She has people regularly contacting her asking if she has pups available and some enquiries re older dogs too from time to time. I do know she is very particular about where all of her dogs go and her dogs come before anything else so I trust she would be happy and well cared for either way

Shelties are in particular known for their bonded devotion to their family. As a Sheltie owner you will know this, MillyMollyMandy78. So, I find it really rather strange that you seem readily willing to give up on your Sheltie (who you have had since she was a puppy, so for 2 and a half YEARS), in favour of an (albeit needy and deserving) rescue dog that you have had for ONE WEEK.

Further, that you are doing so after just one behavioral session, with a dog trainer (is she a registered dog behaviorist?) who has been unable or unwilling to identify the cause of the problem and has suggested no proper course of action to help.

You say early on that your Sheltie has always been a bit nervous. Have you followed any course of action to increase her confidence over the years? My heart goes out to your wee Shetland Sheepdog.