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Are Battersea no kill?

37 replies

PercyHorse · 09/10/2014 15:58

Just that really. Met some chuggers earlier who said they were apart from the dangerous dogs they couldn't rehome Confused

OP posts:
Floralnomad · 16/10/2014 15:48

Battersea do not have a 'no child' policy , they get plenty of puppies that they rehome to families with children . The fact that lots of their dogs are bull breeds makes homing to young families more difficult as if anything went wrong you can imagine the response .

muttynutty · 16/10/2014 17:53

I do have issues with Battersea. They do not home check everyone. They have only recently moved onto training and having behaviourists who offer positive training methods so many dogs with "behavioural" issues had in the past got the the wrong training and were destroyed for no reason.

Good things about Battersea is the celeb image so that they do get support and funding which can only be a good thing.

There are still a very large number of no kill rescues - the option for the dogs is not long term kenneling. It is generally correct rehoming and correct behavioural advice. Rescues I am involved with have some dogs sent to the military for training, some to the police and some are sent to be trained for assistance dogs - some of these dogs may not be suitable for traditional families. Some are sent to experienced foster homes before they are rehomed (looks at Max lying by old Collie as I speak!)

I do agree though that the fault is the lack of breeding regulation
Also that many people are just fickle and give up on dogs when they are only behaving as dogs
So many people are ignorant of dog behaviour and blame the dog when it is all down to the owners lack of knowledge and lack of understanding of dogs.

As I have said before I have reactive dogs at home who were on the verge of being put down due to their behaviour and I have never seen any aggression from them at all. One is a MN dog that had many threads about them and is an absolutely sweety. I did nothing but very simple positive based training. One with so called guarding issues is now a PAT dog and visits a care home and has done for 7 years with no sign of any issues and I know there will not be any in the future. These dogs have come from homes where they had been challenged and treated in an inappropriate manner. If they had gone to a pound the outcome would have been very different.

People need to be prepared to put in effort if they want a dog - noone is making you have one but if you do you have to be prepared to train them and change your routine for them.

Peoples perception of rescue dogs also needs to change- the idea that they all come with baggage is wrong. The idea that a puppy is a clean slate is wrong. The breeder and the breeding will pay a vital part in that puppies temperament and inexperienced owners can cause more problems.

At least with a rescue dog they are a ready made package - you can see what you are getting and if it is suitable for you. Generally dogs that are temperamentally/genetically sound will bounce back from a poor start in live and this can be assessed well by an experienced good rescue.

There are of course poor rescues as there are poor breeders and new owners need to do a lot of research to check which rescues they visit.

moosemama · 16/10/2014 18:58

I know nothing about Battersea. My post was purely from experience with really good, smaller rescues who do such a lot of amazing work but are hopelessly underfunded and over-subscribed, as it were.

From conversations I've had recently, some previously no-kill rescues are aware that they may not be able to retain that status much longer with the current climate as it is (re dangerous dogs laws and litigation etc). They do as much as they possibly can with regard to thorough home-checks, indefinite back-up and of course making sure they match the right dog to the right home etc. These rescues may never have put a dog down before, but can no longer risk rehoming a dog that has seriously bitten. The ones I know haven't been forced into making that decision yet, but they are seriously worried that that day may come.

I agree that the vast majority of dogs can be rehabilitated and there are some homes, be they foster or permanent, that can manage or rehabilitate their behaviour - but those homes are extremely rare and the numbers of maltreated, damaged dogs are astronomical and increasing all the time. The number of homes where people can take on a highly aggressive dog and keep both the dog and everyone else safe while they work on the causes and manifestations of their problems are few and far between. I applaud you for the work you've done mutty but homes like yours are beyond rare.

muttynutty · 16/10/2014 19:44

Moosemama the point of my thread is that there are very few highly aggressive dogs - there are a lot that are labelled that by inexperienced people. There are a lot of dogs that have been put in a position where they have to bite because of owners ignorance. You only have to see all the "cute" dangerous videos of dogs being forced to put up with childrens behaviour to see a placid dog bite waiting to happen. The bite history of a dog is vital on assessing whether it is truly aggressive this is rarely done in dog pounds.

Homes like mine are not rare - they are crazy dogs homes Smile It could be the people I mix with - there are a a lot of us about with "dubious" rescues that are competing at high level in working trials, obedience and agility.

SistersOfPercy · 16/10/2014 22:31

I think they must be having some kind of push on fund raising as I live way 'oop Norton's and was surprised to see a battersea fund raising trailer in my local town last week.
I've also noticed battersea branded dog and cat toys in Tesco lately.

The thing for me is I'd rather support rescues on my doorstep, smaller shelters who don't get the media coverage or the gushing celebrities. I feel sorry for our small, struggling local shelters tbh.

Floralnomad · 16/10/2014 22:40

I didn't get home checked when I got my puppy from Battersea ,you are made aware that they may check up on you after adoption and fill in a comprehensive form and have an interview . I'm sure some mistakes are made but I would imagine that the re homers have a pretty good sense of who would make a responsible owner . I actually don't see what a home check would have proved other than we had good fencing and were not hiding a gaggle of small children that we hadn't declared on the forms .

moosemama · 17/10/2014 09:57

I agree with you totally mutty. Pounds are not 'rescues', they are holding cells for dogs. If they're lucky enough to get offered a new home, they're sent off with no checks, if not, it's the end of the road for them.

Also agree that true aggression of no discernable cause is very rare. The issue some of the smaller rescues have is that if a dog is surrendered with a bite history, even if they show no sign of aggression at all during their time with the rescue or foster, if they then go on to be poorly handled at some point in the future and end up resorting to biting again, no matter how many ignored warnings they gave out first, the sad fact is that these days many people will sue the rescue, the press will get hold of it and rescues can and do get shut down as a result. As I said, they do everything they can to ensure the dogs go to the right home, with the right type of owners, but there's no crystal ball and in truth all homecheck, assessment interviews and adoption questionnaires are only a snapshot of the potential new guardian's situation at the time of rehoming - no-one can predict the future. Currently decent rescues are still able to choose to support and rehabilitate such dogs, but there's been rumblings about specific legislation regarding prosecution of anyone who knowingly rehomes a dog that's already bitten. That's a scary prospect for any rescue.

I think your view of how common homes like yours are is a little skewed, because you are actively involved in rescue and high level training. I too know of plenty of people that have taken in difficult cases and I have done myself, but in a way, it's similar to the way we're all shocked and outraged when we meet or hear of irresponsible, ignorant people causing no end of problems for their dogs and other people. People like that don't exist in our canine-related social circles, because we mix with those that care enough to give and damn and want to learn everything they can. The vast majority of dog keepers in this country simply aren't like that - they buy a dog, maybe take it to puppy classes if it's lucky and that's that. The working trials, agility, obedience world is only a very select microcosm of dog ownership in the UK and it's easy to forget that those owners are sadly in the majority.

Yes, there are people who can and do take on the difficult cases, but there aren't anywhere near enough compared to the numbers of dogs that are damaged then dumped, you only have to take a look at the long-term cases in some of the better rescues to see how hard it is to find people to take them on. The lucky ones will at least find long-term foster, the less lucky live out their lives confined to kennels and runs, but with their physical needs met and people who genuinely care around them to earn their trust and help them heal their mental and physical scars, but no matter how we dress that up, it's far from ideal.

At the end of the day I think, fundamentally, we are in agreement. Genuinely decent rescues are up against it from all angles on a daily basis, while pounds continue to support byb, overpopulation and throw-away dogs by essentially just selling on those dogs that are victims of all these things.

I am mostly supportive of no-kill shelters, but there are a couple who have had no choice but to pts a dog that even after a mammoth rehabilitation programme and exhausting every avenue available to them, was still totally unpredictable and highly aggressive. In both cases the general consensus, both veterinary and behavioural, was that there was far more going on than just adverse life experience, most likely underlying brain damage or similar. That's literally two dogs, at different rescues, that I know of in over 20 years and knowing how much those rescues care and how hard they work, I would never condemn either one for making those individual decisions. So, as you said, exceptionally rare - but it does happen and some would insist those rescues couldn't consider themselves no-kill as a result.

Floral homechecks, if done properly can tell a good homechecker an awful lot about the potential adopters. Things you may not think about, such as 'Is the house pristine to the point of obsessive cleanliness?' and 'How do the kids behave?' 'Where to any existing dog have there beds and is there fresh water down?' etc can be very telling. Often home-checkers will bring their own dog to the appointment and that can be very interesting in terms of seeing how the homeowner, their family and any existing dogs react to a dog in their home environment (I have heard of cases where the person being home-checked would only allow the home-checkers dog in the kitchen, as they didn't want dog hair on their carpets! Hmm). It's also amazing what can be gleaned out of just a general chat, you can pick up all sorts regarding dog-owning history and attitudes to keeping dogs that you simply wouldn't get from a rehoming questionnaire, where the owner can be very guarded about what they do and don't put down.

Floralnomad · 17/10/2014 14:27

moose ,you do get an interview at Battersea after filling out the questionnaire when lots of things are covered ( like your general chat) . If you are home checking a non doggy house ,which mine was, all they literally could have seen was where I lived and that I had a fenced garden .I have had an RSPCA home check in the past ( for a rabbit) it was IMO a complete waste of time and meant that the rabbit stayed with them for an extra week ,she was in the house 5 minutes just to look at the garden .TBH it would have been a lot less hassle / money to get a rabbit from a breeder or a pet shop and I can understand why people do that .

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/10/2014 14:36

The problem is when the number of dogs being handed in is far greater than the number of adoptions what do you do? Used to volunteer in an SSPCA centre, new dog in meant a resident dog PTS. What else can you do?

moosemama · 17/10/2014 15:01

Floral I appreciate that it won't always turn up anything of note, but you'd be surprised how often a home visit can/does. As I said before, I don't know anything about Battersea myself - other than what I've seen on the TV that is.

As for the RSPCA - well probably best I don't get onto that subject, because it will just mean another rant. Blush I've had a few homechecks like that myself over the years and agree they are pretty much a waste of time - lip-service being paid to ensuring animals go to the right homes.

muttynutty · 17/10/2014 17:46

Moose I think you misunderstand me.....I am saying that there are not as many difficult cases as you perceive.

There are dogs that are described as difficult cases but in reality have just had numpty owners - they do not need experienced homes just "normal" owners with a willingness to learn - a good rescue will offer this support.

Huge difference between 2 dogs in 20 years pts that you mentioned and nearly 3000 Battersea put down in a year.

Home checks are vital before homing a rescue dog - you can find out so much information from a good home check and statistics have proven that dogs will not be rehomed again if a detailed home check is carried out first. All family members and existing animals must meet the prospective new dog before being allowed to rehome.

The working trials, agility, obedience world is only a very select microcosm of dog ownership in the UK Smile tell that to the hundreds of thousands of owners competing this summer! We may be a minority but certainly not a select microcosm. Also most of us will own multiple dogs - I am a lightweight with only 6 Grin

moosemama · 17/10/2014 19:00

Just typed a massive post and then deleted it for being far too wordy.

I am not misunderstanding at all mutty. I totally agree that truly difficult, complex cases are in the minority, but disagree that there are enough 'normal' owners who are genuinely willing to put in the effort and learning required to take on those dogs that have suffered at the hands of numpty owners and just need a bit of extra help. There has been a massive slow-down in the length of time it's taking to rehome dogs if they are anything other than bomb-proof - and you only need to look at threads on here to see that often people are unwilling to take on a dog that 'needs work' as it were, especially if they have young children. The economic climate and people being pushed back into work is bound to have an effect, homes where there is someone home all day every day are becoming less and less common and with all the media hype recently those that do, often being homes where there are very young children, are wary of rehoming a dog that has issues.

Maybe our experiences are different. Rescues in different areas of the UK face different issues, both in finding homes and what type of breeds they take in, both of which affect the numbers of successful homings that are possible.

That said I am delighted to hear that the rescues you are involved with are still finding good homes for their dogs in the current climate. It gives me hope that things can improve generally.

I'm afraid I disagree about the working trials, obedience, agility etc scene though. It is a microcosm. Estimations are that there are somewhere between 8 and 10 million dogs in the UK, so even several thousand of them working/training within any one field are far from the norm.

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