I think dpup might have to go back to the rescue.

[TheHoundsBitch]

I feel so guilty and sad :(
She has been biting a LOT and we are very worried that she is going to hurt DS, so we got a trainer to come and see her today to help with training and how to deal with the biting. Trainer was very positive to start with but about half way through the session dpup went crazy (as she does) and bit her. Trainer is now saying that dpups biting problem is extreme (the rescies behaviour team said this too when I described dpup to them on the phone) and sometimes dogs can't be trained to be 'lovely dogs'.
I'm so worried that dpup is going to hurt Ds and I wonder if the best thing is to return her to the rescue :(
She is such a bright puppy, training all the basics is going well but its like she loses control and can't help herself, she is drawing blood frequently when she bites and has little interest in toys. She would much rather bite my clothes and skin than a toy.
Sorry if this is garbled, I'm at a loss. I don't want to be one of those people who give up their puppy when it gets a bit tough, but I'm not sure its safe for DS if we keep her.
We are in a really good position to have a puppy, we thought everything through carefully and we are gutted that its gone so wrong. I don't want to give up on her, I feel so guilty.

I can't believe a trainer is saying that about a 9-10 week old puppy. I have a purebred puppy who was exactly like that for the first several few weeks. He is now a lovely dog who is snoozing at my feet. The 'Ow' noise or squeal just winds some puppies up. Try getting up me walking out of the room.

Clapping loudly would only serve to frighten in my opinion

^this

I am shocked that a rescue centre would rehome a large breed puppy with a child.

I am shocked that when you describe what is normal puppy behaviour that they think it is abnormal.

I have a small collie who made me and my husband look like suicidal self-harmers for months with the amount of blood he drew. We laugh about it now but it was hard hard work.

I am guessing you've never had a puppy before and therefore should not feel bad about returning it to the rescue.

But don't get another dog - all rescue dogs come with baggage and with your ds you don't have the ability to cope atm.

You might be surprised at how easy it is to stop the biting once you know how . Good advice from Needastrongone
Our lab was the first dog we had and we didn't have a clue. He used to regularly bite and draw blood when a pup.
I used to try and run away from him, worst thing I could do as he thought I was playing, he'd hang onto my ankle with his teeth and be dragged along as I tried to escape. If I tried to prise him off he bit my fingers.
Then we learnt how to use food treats and tug toys to distract him and things quickly got a lot better.

You can also reward the behaviour that you DO want. That works. Dpup is now snoozing at my feet after a bit too much attention seeking. He's quiet and relaxed. He's therefore got a gentle stroke and a cuddle, I am rewarding what I like iyswim?

Dogs are not humans. They are trying hard to fit into a human world. We expect them to understand all sorts of rules that we impose on them that make no sense to them. They are also amoral, they will do what works. So, if they get some fuss and attention for being calm, or a bit of cheese if they sit and wait nicely, they will offer this behaviour. The word 'no' means nothing to them.

My own words this time

Just a few things about what the trainer said and a judgement via telephone from a 'behaviourist' made me see things were not quite as you might expect.

Thankfully sensible folk have posted now, as this is normal behaviour, but we have a 'fluffy' idea of what puppies are like. But it is hard work, so no judgement here. Think very carefully about getting another dog at this stage in your busy life though if you do decide to return the puppy.

I am smiling at the comment about looking like suicidal self-harmers as it brings back memories.

Oh dear hounds, sorry you are still having problems but I really must stress its still waaay to early to expect these problems to be fixed.

Much of the advice above we have already nattered about re teething positive enforcement tea towels time out on your other thread.

Puppies are horrible. Cute as hell but horrible head banging against the wall horrible, as you said she has been moved from pillar to post before coming to you.

I dont agree with what your trainer had told you.

Positive consistansy (sp) is the best way to go. And time. Lots of time. Please re read your other thread and this one again-they are very similar regarding training techniques.

I've always had ridgebacks and they seem very 'mouthy' when puppies. The problem is they have exceptionally strong jaws so can do a fair bit of damage chewing etc.

My first ridgeback was 10 months old when he came to live with me & had no bite inhibition at all. I had no DCs then so only me to worry about. I got rid of the mouthing/nipping by stopping fun/attention as soon as it happened. Every single time. It took about 3 months or so but he was older than your pup.

Did you say you've only had her for one week?

Do you have a crate for her? When we got our puppy, we found it was really important for him to have regular "quiet time", away from two 3 year olds. We got to know when were his excitable times (e.g as soon as he came back from a walk) and he would have a short time in his crate to calm down. it was never ever used as a punishment, but just somewhere away from the hustle and bustle, which he needed. We also used to (and still do) feed him in there, otherwise he became incredibly distracted! It goes without saying also don't ever leave DS with the puppy, and that is not just in your situation, but I would say that to anyone.

Dogs explore and play with their mouths, and with some it can be more extreme than others. It often hurts, and you will probably have a lot of ruined clothes! We found ignoring our puppy worked best when he bit (hard when it hurts). He quickly learned that bad behaviour (not that he was being deliberately bad, but you know what I mean) meant that he didn't get played with.

I have to say I think the advice from your trainer is appalling. Making ouch or clapping noises can be highly arousing to a dog and is very unlikely to discourage this behaviour. They sound like they don't follow a positive approach as no decent R+ trainer I know would suggest hand clapping. Are they APDT registered?

You will get much further with the advice needastrongone has posted. Obviously none of us can see the behaviour but it sounds very much like my pup. At those points he was totally overstimulated and tired and I popped him in his crate, where he would usually be fast asleep within 10 minutes! 9-10 weeks is very young to write off a pup as "not a lovely dog".

Does the pup play with older dogs? We had a biting puppy and behaviourist said to get her out with older dogs that put her in her place, worked a treat and only did 3sessions before the nipping stopped.

Hounds got the pup on 18th of this month.

There is a post from her giving more info titled play biting waaay out of hand (i think) its a couple of pages into the doghouse section

Not sure how to link her other thread, sorry

Oh wow. A lot of responses while I was gone.
I'll go through and reply to everything shortly, been talking to the behaviour team again.

Here is my thread from the other day.

I have not had time to read the whole thread but the trainer you meet is wrong. How do I know when I have not seen your dog?

I have been a qualified behaviourist for decades(!) and have worked with thousands of dogs I have never ever ever meet a 9/10 week old puppy that has biting issues that can not be worked with.

You have a large breed dog that will bite and nip - you will need to put in the work to train the correct behaviour - if you do not want to do that rehome asap so that they dog is not ruined and can get a good caring happy home.

I can give you a detailed programmed to follow if you want to but I (maybe wrongly) feel that you have already made up your mind on what you are going to do so I will be wasting my time. If I wrong I am sorry and pm me for the information

meet - met (in a rush!)

We got dpup from the Blue Cross a week ago, I have spoken to the Behaviour Team again and feel a bit more positive. They have sent me some info on 'exuberant puppies' and puppy biting and will follow up with a visit if things aren't improving. I wish they could come out and see her straight away though tbh.

I have to stress that Dpup is not 'nipping' or 'mouthy' or catching us with her teeth by accident. She is not anything like any puppies we have met before. We didn't go into this with our eyes shut, we knew it would be hard, we knew we would get bitten, be up all night, lose various items of clothing furniture and clothing. But I really do feel she is much more difficult than most puppies at her age and so do the Blue Cross behaviour team.

I am pretty much discounting this mornings training session, all the positive stuff she said we are doing already (it was similar to the advice given by the blue cross, needs and others on this thread) and the clapping/ loud noises stuff is not something I want to do - I don't want dpup to be scared of me. She doesn't appear to be APDT registered although she is qualified (BA(Hons) Dip CABT (Companion Animal Behaviour and Training)).

Pup is not fully vaccinated yet, so hasn't met any other dogs. When she has had her second vax our vets run a puppy playgroup that she can attend. She can meet my mums adult lab too, but she's not the sort of dog to put pup in her place I don't think! Other family dogs might be ok - they are more rufftty tuffty types.
Obviously once we can take her out for walks she will meet plenty of adult dogs.

She sleeps in a crate at night and will go in during the day, we haven't shut the door on her in it though. She also has a bed in the living room.

We are using ignoring and time out for the biting and doing loads of training (kikopup methods) she is getting loads of positive reinforcement for good behaviours. Playing with her just seems to wind her up beyond the point where she can respond though. We are trying to play with her but it gets to that point of no return so quickly.

Sorry that's taken ages and I've probably missed stuff.

All puppies bite its how they learn bite inhibition. It bloody hurts - those needle sharp teeth.

I would give him stuff to chew.

Ignore ignore ignore when he bites and jumps up. By ignore i mean walk away from from the dog. No eye contact. Leave the room if you can. No attention until he is calm. Then offer him something to chew. Stroke him gently and in the direction of fur. Don't over excite him, he only knows how to play with his teeth just now so game= biting.

We had an 18m rottie rescue that hadn't learnt not to bite. Ignoring him worked. We also didn't play tug games or anything that would over excite him. I learnt that very quickly when he tried to use me as a raggy toy!! We just kept everything low key and calm. No raised voices and definitely no shouting or noise aversion. We liked a full set of limbs.

I would expect a few more weeks of this at least as it is normal puppy behaviour. You need to unteach it. The problem you will have is your ds. Can you train him how to behave around the puppy so as not to over excite him? This is a big issue. When our rottie got over excited we had lost the battle and he was too big and powerful fof that. Much like your dog. Ridge backs are big powerful strong willed dogs. I am stunned the rescue gave him to a family with a young child and first dog too?

If you hand him back now he will be easily homed. I think you need to be very honest with yourself as to whether you can cope with this dog. The teenage years will be hard (about 1y to 18m in a dog) and he will push boundaries if you are not 100% in charge (gently). If he gets to that stage and you hand him back then you are giving him a death sentence.

If you do rehome. Don't be put off. Just maybe choose a more family friendly breed and go for a slightly older dog that has past this difficult pain in the arse stage. I have lots of dog experience , including my nutty rottweiler rescue dog and i wouldn't have a ridgeback . They need experienced owners.

"Playing with her just seems to wind her up beyond a point that she can respond" thus was exactly how my rottie was. Stop playing with her! We had to. It felt hard and unfair but it just fried his brain and he was a danger at 18m and 10 stone

Keep your interactions gentle and quiet. You dont havd to play rough and tumble. In fact you shouldn't.

Am also surprised the dog is unvaccinated. Should have had his first vax at 8 weeks. Rescue sounds a bit dodgy.

Hound it might be worth remembering that you can get your Dip CABT without even encountering a dog - I did mine from hospital. They'd have blown their tops if a dog had come in!

It's theory based. It's still a lot of work, but it isn't practical, hands on experience.

Am also surprised the dog is unvaccinated. Should have had his first vax at 8 weeks. Rescue sounds a bit dodgy.
She had her first vax (at 8.5 weeks ish) at the rescue (Blue Cross), second vax is booked in at our vet.

How did you play with your rottie LEM? We are doing lots of training and sitting with her with a chew toy in place of playing.

Our dog was a nightmare as a puppy, he would race round and round you, jumping up to nip and nothing would make him stop it was like he had gone deaf. He eventually grew out of it